Firangi ? recently sold on eBay....with holes drilled into blade!!!

katana · 26th April 2007, 07:42 PM

Recently finished on eBay......lovely hilt.....vandalised blade ....but still made a good price

Mad bidding...or am I missing something

Please all comments gratefully received.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=012

Tim Simmons · 26th April 2007, 08:13 PM

It seems odd to me that a nice well made and decorated handle is with such a poorly finished and what appears to be a fairly low or basic quality blade. Maybe the handle is off an older nice weapon. I am going to be really mean and suggest that this could be a 19th cent souvenir wall piece. This type and style of work was used for a lot of early souvenirs. I could be horribly wrong

but it does raise an eyebrow at that price.

Tim Simmons · 26th April 2007, 09:06 PM

The picture looking directly down on to the guard, the forte looks as if it is quite good steel. It still looks very much like a standard trade blade.

katana · 26th April 2007, 09:55 PM

Hi Tim,
I 'played' around with the contrast on the photo of the blade.....I think there is a possibillity that this is 'watered'.

Perhaps this explains the price

If it is 'wootz'.... the idiot that drilled the holes should be &£$?*........ashamed

Emanuel · 26th April 2007, 10:26 PM

Hello David,

This looks like a nice firangi. Perhaps the holes were once filled with gold buttons, an indication of high quality? I recall some swords had such treatment, usually one insert close to the langet.

Emanuel

katana · 26th April 2007, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hello David,

This looks like a nice firangi. Perhaps the holes were once filled with gold buttons, an indication of high quality? I recall some swords had such treatment, usually one insert close to the langet.

Emanuel

Hi Emanuel,
I did consider this possibility...but thought the position/spacing of the holes doesn't look right.....perhaps Jens could help

Regards David

Emanuel · 27th April 2007, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

I did consider this possibility...

Hi David,

It would be very sad then if the holes had been drilled for something as banal as hanging...foolish people.

I'm getting seriously attracted to Indian arms. I have two tulwars now and want MORE

I actually found that prices have been a bit low recently. A perfectly good pulwar just went yesterday for 100USD, then there are some in poor conditions like this khanda, or some cheap new Indian pieces going for heavy cash! It's maddening!
Maybe these khanda types are being snatched up for their possible Sikh connection?
Looking forward to what Jens, BI and Jim have to say about this one.

All the best,
Emanuel

Jens Nordlunde · 27th April 2007, 10:51 PM

Thank you for your confidence, but knowing that BI and Jim are very occupied, I will try to answer.

It is true that weapons connected to the Sikh’s usually goes rather high on auctions, and if they are decorated with gold – even higher. This can, however, not be a surprise. First it looks nice, and secondly the gold represents a value, but back to the weapon in question. The holes do not represent a certain number of hanged men. If they represent anything, it is one hundred men killed, with the sword, for each hole – not hanged, but so far I believe it to be a rumor. So I do seriously doubt that this is the case with this sword. The holes in question are, as far as I have seen them, made in a need row along the spine of the blade, if the is more than one – and not scattered over the blade.

katana · 28th April 2007, 08:10 PM

Hi Jens,

thanks for the reply

, it is indeed a nice sword....and if I read you correctly ....these holes were nothing to do with decoration or used as a 'score card'..... I could understand if the holes were near the spine.....as there would be less 'weakening' of the blade.

Emanuel, I must also admit a growing interest in Indo-persian arms....their forms and functions are facinating, and some of the quality examples are breath taking

Regards David

Lee · 29th April 2007, 04:30 AM

I have frequently noticed the feature of holes, usually filled with iron, in the forte of Indian blades and I have several examples with this feature, including an example with an old European blade.

I have assumed these often represent artifacts of previous mountings but I also wonder if sometimes they may have been placed to suggest a blade was an heirloom, even when it was not.

kronckew · 30th April 2007, 11:50 AM

i have little experience with these, but have noted a number of indian weapons with re-enforcements riveted to the blade just about where those holes are, one appearing in a current thread re cleaning

could this be a re-hilted blade that in past lives had re-enforcing plates attached?

galvano · 30th April 2007, 12:15 PM

hi
There are holes also towards the point of the khanda.
It are sealed.

kronckew · 30th April 2007, 12:29 PM

interesting - the refilled hole near the tip could have been for a different purpose, proofing slugs, or forging flaw repairs?, how many are they & are they evenly spaced? how far from the point is that one? (the patterning to the blade in the last pic looks wootzy!)

the blade in the linky i put above has decorative strips riveted on one side fairly near the tip which would leave holes if removed (may look filled if sheared off), and would have left off centre holes at the ricasso.

anyway, nice weapon. holes near the centreline would not seriously weaken the blade anyhow, especially if nice round ones.

galvano · 30th April 2007, 01:36 PM

They are not repairs.
They are perfectly in the center.
With the point, it is silver.
Point, second hole 15,5 cm.
Second hole, third hole 14,5 cm

26th April 2007, 07:42 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Firangi ? recently sold on eBay....with holes drilled into blade!!! Recently finished on eBay......lovely hilt.....vandalised blade ....but still made a good price Mad bidding...or am I missing something Please all comments gratefully received. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=012

26th April 2007, 09:55 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Tim, I 'played' around with the contrast on the photo of the blade.....I think there is a possibillity that this is 'watered'. Perhaps this explains the price If it is 'wootz'.... the idiot that drilled the holes should be &£$?*........ashamed Attached Images

30th April 2007, 12:15 PM	#12
galvano Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 178	hole hi There are holes also towards the point of the khanda. It are sealed. Attached Images

30th April 2007, 01:36 PM	#14
galvano Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 178	holes They are not repairs. They are perfectly in the center. With the point, it is silver. Point, second hole 15,5 cm. Second hole, third hole 14,5 cm Attached Images

26th April 2007, 08:13 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	It seems odd to me that a nice well made and decorated handle is with such a poorly finished and what appears to be a fairly low or basic quality blade. Maybe the handle is off an older nice weapon. I am going to be really mean and suggest that this could be a 19th cent souvenir wall piece. This type and style of work was used for a lot of early souvenirs. I could be horribly wrong but it does raise an eyebrow at that price.

26th April 2007, 09:06 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	The picture looking directly down on to the guard, the forte looks as if it is quite good steel. It still looks very much like a standard trade blade.

26th April 2007, 10:26 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello David, This looks like a nice firangi. Perhaps the holes were once filled with gold buttons, an indication of high quality? I recall some swords had such treatment, usually one insert close to the langet. Emanuel

27th April 2007, 10:51 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you for your confidence, but knowing that BI and Jim are very occupied, I will try to answer. It is true that weapons connected to the Sikh’s usually goes rather high on auctions, and if they are decorated with gold – even higher. This can, however, not be a surprise. First it looks nice, and secondly the gold represents a value, but back to the weapon in question. The holes do not represent a certain number of hanged men. If they represent anything, it is one hundred men killed, with the sword, for each hole – not hanged, but so far I believe it to be a rumor. So I do seriously doubt that this is the case with this sword. The holes in question are, as far as I have seen them, made in a need row along the spine of the blade, if the is more than one – and not scattered over the blade.

28th April 2007, 08:10 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Jens, thanks for the reply , it is indeed a nice sword....and if I read you correctly ....these holes were nothing to do with decoration or used as a 'score card'..... I could understand if the holes were near the spine.....as there would be less 'weakening' of the blade. Emanuel, I must also admit a growing interest in Indo-persian arms....their forms and functions are facinating, and some of the quality examples are breath taking Regards David

29th April 2007, 04:30 AM	#10
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	I have frequently noticed the feature of holes, usually filled with iron, in the forte of Indian blades and I have several examples with this feature, including an example with an old European blade. I have assumed these often represent artifacts of previous mountings but I also wonder if sometimes they may have been placed to suggest a blade was an heirloom, even when it was not.

30th April 2007, 11:50 AM	#11
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	i have little experience with these, but have noted a number of indian weapons with re-enforcements riveted to the blade just about where those holes are, one appearing in a current thread re cleaning could this be a re-hilted blade that in past lives had re-enforcing plates attached?

30th April 2007, 12:29 PM	#13
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	interesting - the refilled hole near the tip could have been for a different purpose, proofing slugs, or forging flaw repairs?, how many are they & are they evenly spaced? how far from the point is that one? (the patterning to the blade in the last pic looks wootzy!) the blade in the linky i put above has decorative strips riveted on one side fairly near the tip which would leave holes if removed (may look filled if sheared off), and would have left off centre holes at the ricasso. anyway, nice weapon. holes near the centreline would not seriously weaken the blade anyhow, especially if nice round ones.