Old Sword with "No Me Saques Sin Razon" and "No Me Embaines Sin Honor" with Photos

HAM8T · 18th January 2007, 11:01 PM

I posted this the other day but could not post the photos. It's been in my family for decades but no one seems to know its origin. I would appreciate anyone who could give me some info....I took one poster's advice and read the post "Markings Found on Mexican Swords" and it was quite informative. However, this is my first experience trying to research something like this and I could use some help. I will soon be posting several other items that have been lurking in our garage loft for ages that look quite interesting.

Thank you.

S.Al-Anizi · 18th January 2007, 11:21 PM

Ill take a stab at this, without even knowing the language. I think it says "Draw me not without reason, sheathe me not without honour".

Cheers!

Jim McDougall · 19th January 2007, 02:36 AM

Ham8
S. Al Anizi is of course correct, as previously discussed. These are the words in the so called 'Spanish motto' and these trade blades were typically manufactured in Solingen for the Spanish market from late 18th to early 19th centuries. These blades were however typically shipped to Spain's colonies in Mexico where they were often mounted in European cavalry hilts. This hollow ground sabre blade in more characteristic of sabre blades of the turn of the century, and probably dates, as mounted in about 1830's. It is curved and single edged, where the 18th century blades with the motto were broadsword blades, and seemed unusual mounted in sabre hilts.
These are fascinating swords, as they are representative of the extremely colorful history of Mexico, and found use well into the 19th century, even into the early 20th, often with the national rural police force known as the 'Rurales'. These mounted forces were originally founded by Benito Juarez in 1867, and used all manner of surplus and heirloom weaponry.

Best regards,
Jim

P.S. I was the poster who mentioned the Mexican swords thread

and I'm glad you found our discussion there informative. Hopefully this information will also be helpful. Also that hilt appears to be German from about end of 18th c. but haven't pegged it for sure yet

This simply suggests the sword might have been put together in Germany, possibly went to Spain and it would be unclear whether it ended up in Mexico.....we just know that many like this did. I have seen very similar examples marked 'Sahagun' in large etched letters like this that are typically considered 'Spanish Colonial'.

HAM8T · 23rd January 2007, 04:59 PM

Hello Jim,

Thank you so much for your most informative reply....I am sorry for the delay in acknowledging but I have just received the okay (and privilege) to post.

I was wondering if you have any idea of this sword's value....I am not a collector and we just have so much "stuff" we need to clear out. The several items we found of this sort have been either in our family for decades or left with the home we purchased decades ago. However, we are sure that these items are not personally attached to any member of our family so there is no sentimental value to us. If there was a personal attachment, we would never part with the item. (Which is another reason why we have accumulated so much!)

Thank you again for any help you can offer.

Helen

Rick · 23rd January 2007, 05:30 PM

Hi Helen,
From the Forum Posting Rules and Guidelines:

Public appraisals are not permitted on these fora. However, if you would like an appraisal of an item's value or market conditions, please request that other members contact you with that information via email or PM.

HAM8T · 23rd January 2007, 06:05 PM

Hello Rick....

Thank you so much....Actually, I did read the rules but did not realize that ballpark values were not allowed on the thread. I hope this will not affect my ability to post in the future. I will go back and re-read the rules to be sure I am in compliance.

My E-Mail address is available through the PM method if anyone would care to reply.

Thanks,
Helen

Rick · 23rd January 2007, 06:18 PM

Hi Helen,

Yes, even Ballpark Guesstimates are discouraged.

Another note; you may not want to post your email on the forum as email addresses tend to get harvested by spammers .

Using the PM function assures privacy.

Rick

HAM8T · 23rd January 2007, 07:06 PM

Thank you again....I am just a novice when it comes to these forums! I have edited my message.

18th January 2007, 11:01 PM	#1
HAM8T Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 11	Old Sword with "No Me Saques Sin Razon" and "No Me Embaines Sin Honor" with Photos I posted this the other day but could not post the photos. It's been in my family for decades but no one seems to know its origin. I would appreciate anyone who could give me some info....I took one poster's advice and read the post "Markings Found on Mexican Swords" and it was quite informative. However, this is my first experience trying to research something like this and I could use some help. I will soon be posting several other items that have been lurking in our garage loft for ages that look quite interesting. Thank you. Attached Images

19th January 2007, 02:36 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Ham8 S. Al Anizi is of course correct, as previously discussed. These are the words in the so called 'Spanish motto' and these trade blades were typically manufactured in Solingen for the Spanish market from late 18th to early 19th centuries. These blades were however typically shipped to Spain's colonies in Mexico where they were often mounted in European cavalry hilts. This hollow ground sabre blade in more characteristic of sabre blades of the turn of the century, and probably dates, as mounted in about 1830's. It is curved and single edged, where the 18th century blades with the motto were broadsword blades, and seemed unusual mounted in sabre hilts. These are fascinating swords, as they are representative of the extremely colorful history of Mexico, and found use well into the 19th century, even into the early 20th, often with the national rural police force known as the 'Rurales'. These mounted forces were originally founded by Benito Juarez in 1867, and used all manner of surplus and heirloom weaponry. Best regards, Jim P.S. I was the poster who mentioned the Mexican swords thread and I'm glad you found our discussion there informative. Hopefully this information will also be helpful. Also that hilt appears to be German from about end of 18th c. but haven't pegged it for sure yet This simply suggests the sword might have been put together in Germany, possibly went to Spain and it would be unclear whether it ended up in Mexico.....we just know that many like this did. I have seen very similar examples marked 'Sahagun' in large etched letters like this that are typically considered 'Spanish Colonial'. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 19th January 2007 at 03:47 AM.

23rd January 2007, 04:59 PM	#4
HAM8T Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 11	No Me Saques Sin Razon Sword Hello Jim, Thank you so much for your most informative reply....I am sorry for the delay in acknowledging but I have just received the okay (and privilege) to post. I was wondering if you have any idea of this sword's value....I am not a collector and we just have so much "stuff" we need to clear out. The several items we found of this sort have been either in our family for decades or left with the home we purchased decades ago. However, we are sure that these items are not personally attached to any member of our family so there is no sentimental value to us. If there was a personal attachment, we would never part with the item. (Which is another reason why we have accumulated so much!) Thank you again for any help you can offer. Helen

23rd January 2007, 05:30 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Values Hi Helen, From the Forum Posting Rules and Guidelines: Public appraisals are not permitted on these fora. However, if you would like an appraisal of an item's value or market conditions, please request that other members contact you with that information via email or PM.

23rd January 2007, 06:05 PM	#6
HAM8T Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 11	Sword & My E-Mail Hello Rick.... Thank you so much....Actually, I did read the rules but did not realize that ballpark values were not allowed on the thread. I hope this will not affect my ability to post in the future. I will go back and re-read the rules to be sure I am in compliance. My E-Mail address is available through the PM method if anyone would care to reply. Thanks, Helen Last edited by HAM8T; 23rd January 2007 at 07:05 PM. Reason: Should not have listed E-Mail in Thread

18th January 2007, 11:21 PM	#2
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Ill take a stab at this, without even knowing the language. I think it says "Draw me not without reason, sheathe me not without honour". Cheers!

23rd January 2007, 06:18 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hi Helen, Yes, even Ballpark Guesstimates are discouraged. Another note; you may not want to post your email on the forum as email addresses tend to get harvested by spammers . Using the PM function assures privacy. Rick

23rd January 2007, 07:06 PM	#8
HAM8T Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 11	Thank you Again Thank you again....I am just a novice when it comes to these forums! I have edited my message.