STRANGE kERIS BLADE

mykeris · 22nd August 2005, 11:16 AM

Does anybody know dapur or pamor of this keris or maybe age of blade? claimed to be owned by Raja Bilah, a Mendailing Chief who fled Sumatra during the Padri War and settled down in rich tin mines of Papan, Perak, Malay Peninsular in 1800s. Blade is thin and very fragile. Broken tang but restored.Hilt and sheath original. Buntut (end of stem) restored. Old silver Pendokok but not original to the keris.
All views are welcome. TQ.

nechesh · 23rd August 2005, 03:26 AM

Well, it certainly looks old. You might have a tough time getting an accurate call on the dapor considering all the blade erosion. I would say that without MUCH closer examination it would even be difficult to determine if the cut away bits on the interior of the blade are original to the design or added at some later date. As to any claims of ownership by Raja Bilah, i would forget them unless you have some clear provenance to back it up. Many old keris come with stories meant to increase their sales price. It is interesting just how much more valuable something can become simply by inference that it passed through the hands of this one or that.

But without supporting evidence they are only stories, true or not, but unprovable, so we need to concentrate on the item at hand.
I am not familar with this pamor. A staining would probably make ID easier, but considering the present erosion of the blade and the remnant of kinatah on the gandik it would probably be better off to leave it alone.

mykeris · 23rd August 2005, 06:05 AM

Thanks Nechesh, your views make sense to me, probably a reshaped keris, I have never come across seeing one like this before, not even in Bambang`s ensiklopedi of Keris. Maybe my Indonesian brothers and other keris lovers can come forward for their views. I dont think, this keris is of Malay origin. No monetary involved in securing this keris.

Alam Shah · 23rd August 2005, 01:40 PM

I don't think the blade is a Malay piece. For the ganja, it is long and thin, typical of a Javanese blade. Kinatah is rarely practiced on Malay pieces, another reason why I think it's Javanese. Apart from that, the dressing: sarung, pendokok and hulu are Peninsular form. Just my 2 cents opinion.

purwacarita · 23rd August 2005, 03:12 PM

Hi mykeris. I'm not experienced yet to see many keris but as my slight glance opinion, the mushroom carving at sraweyan is not well corroded as nearby edge and though the edge is not corroded I don't think that the curve line will match buntut mimi of ganja. Seems like the corrosion is very smart to pick which spot to dwell.

I'm not sure if I'm right, ...just giving my opinion.

mykeris · 23rd August 2005, 03:14 PM

Alam Shah, you got strong points there. TQ. Have you seen anything like this anywhere?

Raja Muda · 24th August 2005, 01:44 AM

Greetings Mykeris,

I was quite delighted to read the post about Raja Bilah's keris (if this is true) as I'm a fourth generation descendant from the Mandailing chieftains who fled Sumatera when the Dutch intervened in the Padri controlled areas. The Mandailing Rajas have a fearsome reputation for being storm troopers in a number of conflicts in the Malay peninsula in the 1840s-1860s, amongst them the Pahang civil war, the Rawa war and the Selangor civil war. In fact, at some point of time, they controlled a fortress on what is now Bukit Nanas in the heart of Kuala Lumpur's business district. I think at some point of time they also burnt the town down

Raja Bilah was the nephew and adopted son of Raja Asal, who together with Sutan Puasa (my grandmother's uncle. For non Malay speakers, my assumed title here, Raja Muda means both the crown prince in Bahasa Melayu as well as a paraphrase of his Mandailing title Sutan Na Poso or the young prince).
He is of the Nasution clan, which is also my paternal clan. I believe there are still a lot of Nasutions actively involved in Indonesian public life, making their clansmen proud.
Regarding weapons belonging to the many Raja of the Mandailings, what I've gathered from my own research is that they prefer big, solid cutting stuff, swords in particular. One of my ancestors Raja Tampian brought to the peninsula a sundang and a pair of spears, now in the custody of an uncle (I have yet to see them or take pictures).
As far as kerises are concerned, from some old photographs a researcher showed me in a book, they prefer the keris panjang of the Minangkabau model. During ceremonies, the rajas are usually accompanied by bodyguards carrying keris in silver repousse covered sarung, usually with the squarish Minangkabau sampir and a rather rudimentary tapak kuda hilt, though I've not seen many keris pendek.
I was told that some of Tuanku Raja Bilah's effects are kept in his mansion in Papan and amongst them some kerises. I'll try and see if I can find out anything about them. If this was truly one owned by Raja Bilah, I hope it has found a good home. I would be a bit disappointed at the descendants for not retaining their pusaka.

mykeris · 24th August 2005, 08:41 AM

Dear Raja Muda, I am glad to know that you are of Mendailing origin. Hopefully you are wise enough or be kind enough not to reclaim this pusaka,should it be true

origin of which is questionable afterall. Not to put the blame on other pusaka keepers, I think you should be aware that most pusakas have changed hands quite frequently ever since the olden days especially at the time of Japanese occupation in the Malay peninsular, exchange for food and clothing. Mendailing`s dialect is almost similar, at certain level, to the Negrian Minangkabaus and I surely agree that your choice of weapons would be of the same. It is quite unfortunate that your Mendailing chief did inherit a non-minangkabau weapon but perhaps owning it with special reason. Should it be true, is the keris in question logical enough to be true?

Can you pass a comment on the keris blade!

Alam Shah · 24th August 2005, 01:54 PM

In Drs Hamzuri's Keris book, there is a picture with the cutout but slightly different from the piece. The actual piece is at the Central Museum, Jakarta. The pamor is similar, too.

mykeris · 24th August 2005, 03:17 PM

Thanks Alam Shah. Great finding and your serious effort is highly appreciated. What does it say about dapur and pamor? I suppose, this kind of dapur must have existed long time ago. My strong feeling, it is Javanese.

Alam Shah · 24th August 2005, 04:08 PM

Here's the picture.

mykeris · 25th August 2005, 09:44 AM

Thanks Alam Shah for posting sample from the book. I agree, its almost the same. I could see similarity in dapur, pamor and Luk too. Unusual Luk 8 for this kind of keris. It must be a real genuine keris then

. Thanks again.

purwacarita · 25th August 2005, 03:04 PM

Hi mykeris, Alam Shah. I did not put the comments from the perspective to determine whether the keris is genuine or not. The way I see the second keris, the corrosion at buntut mimi of ganja and carving at sraweyan area is at good balance. The vertical line between gandik and blumbangan is also perfect match with the ganja line, where the first keris' is not. No? Sorry in case to melt down the overjoy, it is not my intention. ~IBS

Alam Shah · 25th August 2005, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purwacarita

Hi mykeris, Alam Shah. I did not put the comments from the perspective to determine whether the keris is genuine or not. The way I see the second keris, the corrosion at buntut mimi of ganja and carving at sraweyan area is at good balance. The vertical line between gandik and blumbangan is also perfect match with the ganja line, where the first keris' is not. No? Sorry in case to melt down the overjoy, it is not my intention. ~IBS

Hi,
I agree that the similarities does not mean that the first keris is genuine.

All I'm implying is that there are keris of such design. Whether the piece is genuine or not, I wouldn't know.

mykeris · 25th August 2005, 04:17 PM

Purwacarita & Alam Shah. Thanks for your views. It doesnt matter. I am amazed to see another example of such keris. Whether the first keris is genuine or non-genuine is secondary to me. Most important, your willingness to give your views. I must thank you people.

Raja Muda · 9th September 2005, 05:01 AM

Hi Mykeris,

Your post has started me on a quest of sorts

. I made contact with Abdul Razzaq Lubis, a Penang based researcher on Mandailing history and culture and by happy coincidence he turns out to a direct descendant of Tuanku Raja Bilah from the maternal side. He's even published book on Raja Bilah's exploits in Papan complete with the original letters and materials now stored in the national archives.
He runs a very informative site where I found some old pictures of Mandailing Rajas and their retainers:

http://www.mandailing.org/Eng/old%20...e-Hochzeit.jpg

http://www.mandailing.org/Eng/old%20...0Pekanten.html

Http://www.mandailing.org/Eng/old%20...%20gefolge.jpg

Some kerises can be seen lurking in the pictures, though I wish they were much clearer to see.
Basically the outward dress of these kerises look Malay or Minangkabau to me. Any ideas anyone?

22nd August 2005, 11:16 AM	#1
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	STRANGE kERIS BLADE Does anybody know dapur or pamor of this keris or maybe age of blade? claimed to be owned by Raja Bilah, a Mendailing Chief who fled Sumatra during the Padri War and settled down in rich tin mines of Papan, Perak, Malay Peninsular in 1800s. Blade is thin and very fragile. Broken tang but restored.Hilt and sheath original. Buntut (end of stem) restored. Old silver Pendokok but not original to the keris. All views are welcome. TQ. Attached Images Last edited by mykeris; 22nd August 2005 at 11:22 AM. Reason: more infore

23rd August 2005, 01:40 PM	#4
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	I don't think the blade is a Malay piece. For the ganja, it is long and thin, typical of a Javanese blade. Kinatah is rarely practiced on Malay pieces, another reason why I think it's Javanese. Apart from that, the dressing: sarung, pendokok and hulu are Peninsular form. Just my 2 cents opinion. Last edited by Alam Shah; 23rd August 2005 at 02:06 PM.

24th August 2005, 01:44 AM	#7
Raja Muda Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 100	Lost Pusaka Greetings Mykeris, I was quite delighted to read the post about Raja Bilah's keris (if this is true) as I'm a fourth generation descendant from the Mandailing chieftains who fled Sumatera when the Dutch intervened in the Padri controlled areas. The Mandailing Rajas have a fearsome reputation for being storm troopers in a number of conflicts in the Malay peninsula in the 1840s-1860s, amongst them the Pahang civil war, the Rawa war and the Selangor civil war. In fact, at some point of time, they controlled a fortress on what is now Bukit Nanas in the heart of Kuala Lumpur's business district. I think at some point of time they also burnt the town down Raja Bilah was the nephew and adopted son of Raja Asal, who together with Sutan Puasa (my grandmother's uncle. For non Malay speakers, my assumed title here, Raja Muda means both the crown prince in Bahasa Melayu as well as a paraphrase of his Mandailing title Sutan Na Poso or the young prince). He is of the Nasution clan, which is also my paternal clan. I believe there are still a lot of Nasutions actively involved in Indonesian public life, making their clansmen proud. Regarding weapons belonging to the many Raja of the Mandailings, what I've gathered from my own research is that they prefer big, solid cutting stuff, swords in particular. One of my ancestors Raja Tampian brought to the peninsula a sundang and a pair of spears, now in the custody of an uncle (I have yet to see them or take pictures). As far as kerises are concerned, from some old photographs a researcher showed me in a book, they prefer the keris panjang of the Minangkabau model. During ceremonies, the rajas are usually accompanied by bodyguards carrying keris in silver repousse covered sarung, usually with the squarish Minangkabau sampir and a rather rudimentary tapak kuda hilt, though I've not seen many keris pendek. I was told that some of Tuanku Raja Bilah's effects are kept in his mansion in Papan and amongst them some kerises. I'll try and see if I can find out anything about them. If this was truly one owned by Raja Bilah, I hope it has found a good home. I would be a bit disappointed at the descendants for not retaining their pusaka.

24th August 2005, 01:54 PM	#9
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Similar looking piece. In Drs Hamzuri's Keris book, there is a picture with the cutout but slightly different from the piece. The actual piece is at the Central Museum, Jakarta. The pamor is similar, too. Last edited by Alam Shah; 24th August 2005 at 04:12 PM. Reason: grammar...

24th August 2005, 04:08 PM	#11
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Here's the picture. Attached Images

23rd August 2005, 03:26 AM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well, it certainly looks old. You might have a tough time getting an accurate call on the dapor considering all the blade erosion. I would say that without MUCH closer examination it would even be difficult to determine if the cut away bits on the interior of the blade are original to the design or added at some later date. As to any claims of ownership by Raja Bilah, i would forget them unless you have some clear provenance to back it up. Many old keris come with stories meant to increase their sales price. It is interesting just how much more valuable something can become simply by inference that it passed through the hands of this one or that. But without supporting evidence they are only stories, true or not, but unprovable, so we need to concentrate on the item at hand. I am not familar with this pamor. A staining would probably make ID easier, but considering the present erosion of the blade and the remnant of kinatah on the gandik it would probably be better off to leave it alone.

23rd August 2005, 06:05 AM	#3
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	Thanks Nechesh, your views make sense to me, probably a reshaped keris, I have never come across seeing one like this before, not even in Bambang`s ensiklopedi of Keris. Maybe my Indonesian brothers and other keris lovers can come forward for their views. I dont think, this keris is of Malay origin. No monetary involved in securing this keris.

23rd August 2005, 03:12 PM	#5
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	Hi mykeris. I'm not experienced yet to see many keris but as my slight glance opinion, the mushroom carving at sraweyan is not well corroded as nearby edge and though the edge is not corroded I don't think that the curve line will match buntut mimi of ganja. Seems like the corrosion is very smart to pick which spot to dwell. I'm not sure if I'm right, ...just giving my opinion.

23rd August 2005, 03:14 PM	#6
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	Alam Shah, you got strong points there. TQ. Have you seen anything like this anywhere?

24th August 2005, 08:41 AM	#8
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	Dear Raja Muda, I am glad to know that you are of Mendailing origin. Hopefully you are wise enough or be kind enough not to reclaim this pusaka,should it be true origin of which is questionable afterall. Not to put the blame on other pusaka keepers, I think you should be aware that most pusakas have changed hands quite frequently ever since the olden days especially at the time of Japanese occupation in the Malay peninsular, exchange for food and clothing. Mendailing`s dialect is almost similar, at certain level, to the Negrian Minangkabaus and I surely agree that your choice of weapons would be of the same. It is quite unfortunate that your Mendailing chief did inherit a non-minangkabau weapon but perhaps owning it with special reason. Should it be true, is the keris in question logical enough to be true? Can you pass a comment on the keris blade!

24th August 2005, 03:17 PM	#10
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	Thanks Alam Shah. Great finding and your serious effort is highly appreciated. What does it say about dapur and pamor? I suppose, this kind of dapur must have existed long time ago. My strong feeling, it is Javanese.

25th August 2005, 09:44 AM	#12
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	Thanks Alam Shah for posting sample from the book. I agree, its almost the same. I could see similarity in dapur, pamor and Luk too. Unusual Luk 8 for this kind of keris. It must be a real genuine keris then . Thanks again. Last edited by mykeris; 25th August 2005 at 09:46 AM. Reason: add info

25th August 2005, 03:04 PM	#13
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	Hi mykeris, Alam Shah. I did not put the comments from the perspective to determine whether the keris is genuine or not. The way I see the second keris, the corrosion at buntut mimi of ganja and carving at sraweyan area is at good balance. The vertical line between gandik and blumbangan is also perfect match with the ganja line, where the first keris' is not. No? Sorry in case to melt down the overjoy, it is not my intention. ~IBS

25th August 2005, 04:17 PM	#15
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	Purwacarita & Alam Shah. Thanks for your views. It doesnt matter. I am amazed to see another example of such keris. Whether the first keris is genuine or non-genuine is secondary to me. Most important, your willingness to give your views. I must thank you people.

9th September 2005, 05:01 AM	#16
Raja Muda Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 100	Keris in Mandailing Lands Hi Mykeris, Your post has started me on a quest of sorts . I made contact with Abdul Razzaq Lubis, a Penang based researcher on Mandailing history and culture and by happy coincidence he turns out to a direct descendant of Tuanku Raja Bilah from the maternal side. He's even published book on Raja Bilah's exploits in Papan complete with the original letters and materials now stored in the national archives. He runs a very informative site where I found some old pictures of Mandailing Rajas and their retainers: http://www.mandailing.org/Eng/old%20...e-Hochzeit.jpg http://www.mandailing.org/Eng/old%20...0Pekanten.html Http://www.mandailing.org/Eng/old%20...%20gefolge.jpg Some kerises can be seen lurking in the pictures, though I wish they were much clearer to see. Basically the outward dress of these kerises look Malay or Minangkabau to me. Any ideas anyone? Last edited by Raja Muda; 9th September 2005 at 05:14 AM.