The Greatest Arms Shop - Something for Everyone.

B.I · 29th August 2005, 12:35 PM

some will be be familiar with the name and the catalogues. if ever there was a dealer that catered for EVERYONE on this forum, it was W.D.Oldman.
years ahead of his time, and holding great all round knowledge of the antiquities he dealt in.
george cameron stone was a regular visitor to his small shop in brixton, south london.

B.I · 29th August 2005, 12:38 PM

more.

Aqtai · 29th August 2005, 02:33 PM

Whoa!

I would love to walk into somewhere like that and just spend the afternoon browsing.

I don't suppose you get places like that anymore.

Mark · 29th August 2005, 05:16 PM

Beautiful stuff! Now I want some Oldman catalogues ....
FWIW, my take on the dha is below. I am starting to sort of veer off into the woods with the classification versus what’s been used so far, so others likely have a different view. I haven't made any changes to original classifications on my web site, so please forgive inconsistencies

In the first picture, between the axe and the buffalo head, left to right: a) Lanna style from northern Thailand (see, e.g., ## 71, 72 & C46 on the DRI, link below), b) Burman (the people specifically, not the country) style, with a Kachin influenced blade (this one may actually qualify as a dha-ma, i.e., a chopper rather than a sword; compare to ## 50, C9, C55 & C64) c) another Lanna style from northern Thailand, d) hard to tell, as the handle appears to be missing, I’ll venture a guess that it is Burman, based on the scabbard, e)this looks like a yatagan, not a dha, it must have snuck in from above, f) another Lanna style from northern Thailand, g) a bit hard to see, but it looks to me to be a “village” Shan style, but there might be a bit of a pommel, and metal ferrule, which might make it a Lanna style (I just can't tell from the picture whether it is a simple wrapped handle with glare around it, or something more elaborate).

In the second picture in the second post:
7)-10) Burman, based on the relatively straight blades and square tips of the scabbards [see, e.g., DRI ## C23 & C33, though 8)-10) could possibly be Shan, based on the somewhat longer grip, but I am sticking with Burman

];
12) dha-ma chopper that could be from just about anywhere in Burma or northern Thailand;
14)&15) dha-mauk utility knives that could be from just about anywhere in Burma or northern Thailand;
6) Burman [see, e.g., DRI ## 50, 51, C1, C4 & C64];
1) the handle looks like it broke in two and was repaired, the part closest to the blade looks to be Lanna style;
2)&3) Shan [see, e.g., DRI ## 70 & C52, and the scabbards of most of the daggers on the DRI];
4)&5) I believe this to be a Burman style [see DRI ## 62&65], 5) might possible be a Ratankosin era Thai dha, based on the unadorned silver covered scabbard, the pommel and flared ferrule, but overall the handle looks wrong – the pommel is a touch too big and it looks to have either wood or rattan wrapping in the middle;
13) Kachin [see DRI ## C27, C48 & C49], another possiblity for this one is a "double" sword where the blades are each sheathed in the handle of the other, such that when you grip the ends of the resulting staff and pull apart, you get a sword in each hand. Egerton describes and illustrates one, but I don't have a scan handly.

11) is a bit of a mystery, as the handle is broken and the down-turned blade is a bit unusual, I will hypothesize that it is a Lower Burmese style (maybe Burman, maybe Talaing (Mon)), influenced by Malaysia. Compare it to DRI # C62, which has the same type of blade, and a carved ivory handle of a style typical of southern Burma.

The Dha Research Index

B.I · 29th August 2005, 06:30 PM

hi mark,
whilst oldman was knowledgable in his own right, and privy to information about his pieces (having bought them indirectly from source), his descriptions were basic and of the 1900s (in the dha page - 1906). knowledge, obviously, has progressed since.
all the dha are classified as burmese on that page, with the following page classified as siamese (it has one dha and other items inc a war coat - i believe you have this image).
as its a catalogue, i'm sure there was more information that wasnt included in his short descriptions.
shame, eh!

B.I · 29th August 2005, 06:38 PM

mark,
the page refering to the dha.

Jens Nordlunde · 29th August 2005, 07:15 PM

Nice stuff, thank's for showing. I am quite shure I could have gotten rather pennyless after having shopped by Mr. Oldman, at to days prices.

Jens

Andrew · 29th August 2005, 07:15 PM

I'm pleased to advise that I own dha #8 under "Burmah". I obtained it from a friend on this forum, who had Philip Tom polish it. It's got a pattern-welded/forge-folded blade of remarkable quality. Very light, spring-tempered and differentially hardened with a prominent "hamon" affect, likely from an inserted edge.

It's one of my prized possessions.

Mark · 29th August 2005, 07:31 PM

Thanks for the additional information. It is not unlikely that all of these swords (not considering the ones in the picture of the shop itself) were collected in Burma, since the Shan items likely come from the Shan States in Eastern Burma. The odd man out is #1, which I am pretty sure is a Lanna style, which would make it from the region further east, around Chiang Mai or Luang Prabang. However, given the constant warfare between Burma and Thailand, it is not unreasonable to assume this one made its way into Burma as a spoil of war. #11 I see has an ivory handle, so it is very like the one on my web site. An #13 is a sword stick, huh? I have no data on those. Perhaps a travellor's or merchant's weapon? Or one made for a European? Its a pretty nifty piece, though.

I see from the descriptions page that there are also pieces from Siam in the catalogue. Any chance of getting a look at those?

B.I · 29th August 2005, 08:15 PM

hi mark,
i've attached the next page, but i believe you already have this (you posted it elsewhere on this forum).

andrew, very nice. i think that many pieces from these catalogues must appear now and then. i know i am patiently waiting for a couple of particular items, which i hope will appear on the market one day in my lifetime. however, they may be permanantly locked into a private collection but can hope...

erlikhan · 29th August 2005, 08:27 PM

Is that a complete intact Turkish horse head armor among 16th century breast & shoulder plates?? Worths too much today! Do you know from which year these pictures are?
regards

B.I · 29th August 2005, 08:42 PM

it is a turkish chanfron, complete with side pieces. the sections of mail are from a turkish horse armour as well. it is very nice and, as you say, very rare.
the catalogues stopped being dated after 1908, but from the catalogue number, i would assume the date to be 1910.

Mark · 29th August 2005, 08:59 PM

You are indeed correct, I do have that page & its description. And speaking of owning swords from the catalogue, I would love to track down the one on that second page. Its unusual and looks lovely, I think. Its difficult to say what region/era it is from in Thailand.

John · 30th August 2005, 01:33 AM

Whoa! A Guan Gung statue (1st pic), keris panjang/penyalang (executioner) and a Tajong with a non-matching blade (last pic of first post) and a Java Demam on a Bugis blade (?) (3rd pic of 2nd post) plus some nice Borneon stuffs as well.

Mark · 30th August 2005, 06:58 PM

I was inspecting the cartouche on the blade of Andrew's "Oldman" dha, and it struck me that it may well be a date written in Burmese numerals. They are very stretched out vertically, but I believe they read 1242 (if I am right, the first numeral should be a left-facing crescent, the second like the letter J without the cross at the top, the third sort of like a 9 but with an open loop, and the fourth again like a J). The Burmese calendar is based on the Chulasakarat Buddhist era, which adds 638 to the Western calendar. So if this is a date, it would be 1880.

It also looks vaguely like the Western date 1751, but I think it more likely is a Burmese date.

Do you have any close-ups of the cartouche, Andrew? I blew up a section of your picture, but it is pretty blurry.

B.I · 30th August 2005, 07:07 PM

hi mark,
until andrew replies, here is a poor, but clearer image

Andrew · 30th August 2005, 07:50 PM

I recall reading on Ashoka's website (where I first saw this sword) that the date translated to approximately 1800 C.E. My recollection is suspect, however. Here's a close-up of the cartouche:

erlikhan · 30th August 2005, 08:36 PM

Is there information about the prices of the items sold in that shop and period?

Andrew · 30th August 2005, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

I was inspecting the cartouche on the blade of Andrew's "Oldman" dha, and it struck me that it may well be a date written in Burmese numerals. They are very stretched out vertically, but I believe they read 1242 (if I am right, the first numeral should be a left-facing crescent, the second like the letter J without the cross at the top, the third sort of like a 9 but with an open loop, and the fourth again like a J). The Burmese calendar is based on the Chulasakarat Buddhist era, which adds 638 to the Western calendar. So if this is a date, it would be 1880.

It also looks vaguely like the Western date 1751, but I think it more likely is a Burmese date.

Do you have any close-ups of the cartouche, Andrew? I blew up a section of your picture, but it is pretty blurry.

I agree Mark: 1242 Chulasakarat (1880 AD).

B.I · 30th August 2005, 09:10 PM

hi erlikhan,
these were catalogues and so everything was priced.
believe me, you really dont want to go down that road. 1906 prices should remain a thing of the past, as it will only lead to reminiscing and frustration. £30 will buy you all the turkish arms on that one page.

Jens Nordlunde · 30th August 2005, 09:49 PM

What does the catalogue text say about the kora at the bottom, shown on the last picture in mail #2?

Jens

B.I · 30th August 2005, 10:14 PM

hi jens,
i am not surprised you picked this one one, as it is very unusual and i think very early.
he doesnt off much past an overall description. - engraved full length, worn and inlaid with brass at the head. the back is engraved and inlaid with a band of brass. iron hilt, fluted, engraved and inlaid with brass. black leather covered sheath. length 27.75 inches. end width 3.25 inches. a 'very old specimen'.

he does list another, vitually identical a few years later, but without a scabbard (unless its the same one and he lost the scabbard :-)

Mark · 30th August 2005, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

I agree Mark: 1242 Chulasakarat (1880 AD).

Yes, it is very clear in the close-up. I just noticed that there also is a numeral 2 stamped or engraved in the blade near the forte, and its almost identical in size and shape to the second 2 in the cartouche. This is such an interesting sword.

zalmoxis · 2nd September 2005, 01:14 AM

What about this wall: The Ward collection 19th century, now at Smithsonian.

zalmoxis · 2nd September 2005, 01:18 AM

The next room.

BluErf · 3rd September 2005, 02:19 AM

Oh my goodness... visual... overload...

VANDOO · 3rd September 2005, 05:53 AM

THIS IS THE KIND OF STUFF I LOVE AND CAN DAY DREAM ABOUT ANYONE HAVE MORE PICTURES? PERHAPS WE CAN HAVE A COOLEST ROOM DISPLAY CONTEST.HOW COOL WOULD IT HAVE BEEN TO HAVE A FINE COLLECTION DISPLAYED LIKE THAT. MY EFFORTS PALE BY COMPARISON.
I WONDER IF THE SMITHSONIAN HAS ANY OF THE PROVENANCE AND STORYS THAT WENT WITH THE COLLECTION OR JUST A LOT OF STORED STUFF WITH TAGS THAT ARE UNREADABLE OR CRUMBELING TO DUST DUE TO ACID IN THE PAPER. I HAVE SEEN SOME COPYS OF PAGES FROM THE OLDMANS CATALOGS BUT DON'T OWN ANY AS I UNDERSTAND THEY ARE VERY EXPENSIVE BUT I HAVE ALWAYS ENJOYED LOOKING THRU THE OLD ARMS CATALOGS. SOME ARE BETTER AT IDENTIFING THE THINGS IN THEM THAN OTHERS I WONDER HOW ACCURATE OLDMANS, BANNERMAN AND SOME OF THE LARGER OLDER ONES WERE?.

John · 3rd September 2005, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THIS IS THE KIND OF STUFF I LOVE AND CAN DAY DREAM ABOUT ANYONE HAVE MORE PICTURES? PERHAPS WE CAN HAVE A COOLEST ROOM DISPLAY CONTEST.HOW COOL WOULD IT HAVE BEEN TO HAVE A FINE COLLECTION DISPLAYED LIKE THAT. MY EFFORTS PALE BY COMPARISON.

Quite frankly Barry, the first images that came to mind upon seeing the first Oldman pictures were your displays. Quite comparable.

I find the Ward collection overwhelming.

B.I · 3rd September 2005, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

PERHAPS WE CAN HAVE A COOLEST ROOM DISPLAY CONTEST.

i think this is a great idea. the best wall display, including private and museums. please start the post (your idea) although i think the ward collection would be very hard to beat.
also, not that i'm competative, but would get the african/south east asian/islamic-indian members 'fighting' in one post

however, could be a lot of effort and posts, only to have zalmoxis as the winner anyway.

Spunjer · 3rd September 2005, 12:48 PM

barry,

why don't you start a new thread about displays (private or public). i think there was one on the old eewrs, but most of the pics have disintegrated to a small red 'x'. would be nice to get ideas from fellow forumites on how to display these weapons...

29th August 2005, 06:38 PM	#6
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	mark, the page refering to the dha. Attached Images

29th August 2005, 08:15 PM	#10
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi mark, i've attached the next page, but i believe you already have this (you posted it elsewhere on this forum). andrew, very nice. i think that many pieces from these catalogues must appear now and then. i know i am patiently waiting for a couple of particular items, which i hope will appear on the market one day in my lifetime. however, they may be permanantly locked into a private collection but can hope... Attached Images

30th August 2005, 06:58 PM	#15
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	A date on Andrew's dha? I was inspecting the cartouche on the blade of Andrew's "Oldman" dha, and it struck me that it may well be a date written in Burmese numerals. They are very stretched out vertically, but I believe they read 1242 (if I am right, the first numeral should be a left-facing crescent, the second like the letter J without the cross at the top, the third sort of like a 9 but with an open loop, and the fourth again like a J). The Burmese calendar is based on the Chulasakarat Buddhist era, which adds 638 to the Western calendar. So if this is a date, it would be 1880. It also looks vaguely like the Western date 1751, but I think it more likely is a Burmese date. Do you have any close-ups of the cartouche, Andrew? I blew up a section of your picture, but it is pretty blurry. Attached Images

30th August 2005, 07:07 PM	#16
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi mark, until andrew replies, here is a poor, but clearer image Attached Images

30th August 2005, 07:50 PM	#17
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I recall reading on Ashoka's website (where I first saw this sword) that the date translated to approximately 1800 C.E. My recollection is suspect, however. Here's a close-up of the cartouche: Last edited by Andrew; 30th August 2005 at 09:23 PM.

29th August 2005, 12:35 PM	#1
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	The Greatest Arms Shop - Something for Everyone. some will be be familiar with the name and the catalogues. if ever there was a dealer that catered for EVERYONE on this forum, it was W.D.Oldman. years ahead of his time, and holding great all round knowledge of the antiquities he dealt in. george cameron stone was a regular visitor to his small shop in brixton, south london. Attached Images

29th August 2005, 12:38 PM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	more. Attached Images

29th August 2005, 02:33 PM	#3
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Whoa! I would love to walk into somewhere like that and just spend the afternoon browsing. I don't suppose you get places like that anymore.

29th August 2005, 05:16 PM	#4
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Beautiful stuff! Now I want some Oldman catalogues .... FWIW, my take on the dha is below. I am starting to sort of veer off into the woods with the classification versus what’s been used so far, so others likely have a different view. I haven't made any changes to original classifications on my web site, so please forgive inconsistencies In the first picture, between the axe and the buffalo head, left to right: a) Lanna style from northern Thailand (see, e.g., ## 71, 72 & C46 on the DRI, link below), b) Burman (the people specifically, not the country) style, with a Kachin influenced blade (this one may actually qualify as a dha-ma, i.e., a chopper rather than a sword; compare to ## 50, C9, C55 & C64) c) another Lanna style from northern Thailand, d) hard to tell, as the handle appears to be missing, I’ll venture a guess that it is Burman, based on the scabbard, e)this looks like a yatagan, not a dha, it must have snuck in from above, f) another Lanna style from northern Thailand, g) a bit hard to see, but it looks to me to be a “village” Shan style, but there might be a bit of a pommel, and metal ferrule, which might make it a Lanna style (I just can't tell from the picture whether it is a simple wrapped handle with glare around it, or something more elaborate). In the second picture in the second post: 7)-10) Burman, based on the relatively straight blades and square tips of the scabbards [see, e.g., DRI ## C23 & C33, though 8)-10) could possibly be Shan, based on the somewhat longer grip, but I am sticking with Burman ]; 12) dha-ma chopper that could be from just about anywhere in Burma or northern Thailand; 14)&15) dha-mauk utility knives that could be from just about anywhere in Burma or northern Thailand; 6) Burman [see, e.g., DRI ## 50, 51, C1, C4 & C64]; 1) the handle looks like it broke in two and was repaired, the part closest to the blade looks to be Lanna style; 2)&3) Shan [see, e.g., DRI ## 70 & C52, and the scabbards of most of the daggers on the DRI]; 4)&5) I believe this to be a Burman style [see DRI ## 62&65], 5) might possible be a Ratankosin era Thai dha, based on the unadorned silver covered scabbard, the pommel and flared ferrule, but overall the handle looks wrong – the pommel is a touch too big and it looks to have either wood or rattan wrapping in the middle; 13) Kachin [see DRI ## C27, C48 & C49], another possiblity for this one is a "double" sword where the blades are each sheathed in the handle of the other, such that when you grip the ends of the resulting staff and pull apart, you get a sword in each hand. Egerton describes and illustrates one, but I don't have a scan handly. 11) is a bit of a mystery, as the handle is broken and the down-turned blade is a bit unusual, I will hypothesize that it is a Lower Burmese style (maybe Burman, maybe Talaing (Mon)), influenced by Malaysia. Compare it to DRI # C62, which has the same type of blade, and a carved ivory handle of a style typical of southern Burma. The Dha Research Index

29th August 2005, 06:30 PM	#5
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi mark, whilst oldman was knowledgable in his own right, and privy to information about his pieces (having bought them indirectly from source), his descriptions were basic and of the 1900s (in the dha page - 1906). knowledge, obviously, has progressed since. all the dha are classified as burmese on that page, with the following page classified as siamese (it has one dha and other items inc a war coat - i believe you have this image). as its a catalogue, i'm sure there was more information that wasnt included in his short descriptions. shame, eh!

29th August 2005, 07:15 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Nice stuff, thank's for showing. I am quite shure I could have gotten rather pennyless after having shopped by Mr. Oldman, at to days prices. Jens

29th August 2005, 07:31 PM	#9
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Thanks for the additional information. It is not unlikely that all of these swords (not considering the ones in the picture of the shop itself) were collected in Burma, since the Shan items likely come from the Shan States in Eastern Burma. The odd man out is #1, which I am pretty sure is a Lanna style, which would make it from the region further east, around Chiang Mai or Luang Prabang. However, given the constant warfare between Burma and Thailand, it is not unreasonable to assume this one made its way into Burma as a spoil of war. #11 I see has an ivory handle, so it is very like the one on my web site. An #13 is a sword stick, huh? I have no data on those. Perhaps a travellor's or merchant's weapon? Or one made for a European? Its a pretty nifty piece, though. I see from the descriptions page that there are also pieces from Siam in the catalogue. Any chance of getting a look at those?

29th August 2005, 08:27 PM	#11
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Is that a complete intact Turkish horse head armor among 16th century breast & shoulder plates?? Worths too much today! Do you know from which year these pictures are? regards Last edited by erlikhan; 29th August 2005 at 08:47 PM.

29th August 2005, 08:42 PM	#12
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	it is a turkish chanfron, complete with side pieces. the sections of mail are from a turkish horse armour as well. it is very nice and, as you say, very rare. the catalogues stopped being dated after 1908, but from the catalogue number, i would assume the date to be 1910.

29th August 2005, 08:59 PM	#13
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	You are indeed correct, I do have that page & its description. And speaking of owning swords from the catalogue, I would love to track down the one on that second page. Its unusual and looks lovely, I think. Its difficult to say what region/era it is from in Thailand.

30th August 2005, 01:33 AM	#14
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Whoa! A Guan Gung statue (1st pic), keris panjang/penyalang (executioner) and a Tajong with a non-matching blade (last pic of first post) and a Java Demam on a Bugis blade (?) (3rd pic of 2nd post) plus some nice Borneon stuffs as well.

30th August 2005, 08:36 PM	#18
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Is there information about the prices of the items sold in that shop and period?

30th August 2005, 09:10 PM	#20
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi erlikhan, these were catalogues and so everything was priced. believe me, you really dont want to go down that road. 1906 prices should remain a thing of the past, as it will only lead to reminiscing and frustration. £30 will buy you all the turkish arms on that one page.

30th August 2005, 09:49 PM	#21
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	What does the catalogue text say about the kora at the bottom, shown on the last picture in mail #2? Jens

30th August 2005, 10:14 PM	#22
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi jens, i am not surprised you picked this one one, as it is very unusual and i think very early. he doesnt off much past an overall description. - engraved full length, worn and inlaid with brass at the head. the back is engraved and inlaid with a band of brass. iron hilt, fluted, engraved and inlaid with brass. black leather covered sheath. length 27.75 inches. end width 3.25 inches. a 'very old specimen'. he does list another, vitually identical a few years later, but without a scabbard (unless its the same one and he lost the scabbard :-)

2nd September 2005, 01:14 AM	#24
zalmoxis Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: GA USA Posts: 76	An impresive wall. What about this wall: The Ward collection 19th century, now at Smithsonian. Attached Images

2nd September 2005, 01:18 AM	#25
zalmoxis Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: GA USA Posts: 76	There is more.... The next room. Attached Images

3rd September 2005, 02:19 AM	#26
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Oh my goodness... visual... overload...

3rd September 2005, 05:53 AM	#27
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THIS IS THE KIND OF STUFF I LOVE AND CAN DAY DREAM ABOUT ANYONE HAVE MORE PICTURES? PERHAPS WE CAN HAVE A COOLEST ROOM DISPLAY CONTEST.HOW COOL WOULD IT HAVE BEEN TO HAVE A FINE COLLECTION DISPLAYED LIKE THAT. MY EFFORTS PALE BY COMPARISON. I WONDER IF THE SMITHSONIAN HAS ANY OF THE PROVENANCE AND STORYS THAT WENT WITH THE COLLECTION OR JUST A LOT OF STORED STUFF WITH TAGS THAT ARE UNREADABLE OR CRUMBELING TO DUST DUE TO ACID IN THE PAPER. I HAVE SEEN SOME COPYS OF PAGES FROM THE OLDMANS CATALOGS BUT DON'T OWN ANY AS I UNDERSTAND THEY ARE VERY EXPENSIVE BUT I HAVE ALWAYS ENJOYED LOOKING THRU THE OLD ARMS CATALOGS. SOME ARE BETTER AT IDENTIFING THE THINGS IN THEM THAN OTHERS I WONDER HOW ACCURATE OLDMANS, BANNERMAN AND SOME OF THE LARGER OLDER ONES WERE?.

3rd September 2005, 12:48 PM	#30
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	barry, why don't you start a new thread about displays (private or public). i think there was one on the old eewrs, but most of the pics have disintegrated to a small red 'x'. would be nice to get ideas from fellow forumites on how to display these weapons...