Running wolf on Timor sword

JeffS · 29th October 2024, 09:41 AM

Hello. I think this is my first post in this sub-forum. It was suggested that I post here for comments on this blade. This is found on a sword from Timor group of islands with characteristic rooster head pommel design. The sword may be from late 19th century or early 20th century but the blade apparently much older. Any comments would be appreciated. Note that this is as received and not cleaned nor rust removed yet.

Jim McDougall · 29th October 2024, 02:52 PM

This is MOST interesting! and while technically 'ethnographic' (as the sword as mounted is) the blade is of course a Solingen type blade of the 18th c.
It seems the blade may have had the point rebated into the chopper type blades favored in these archipelagos of the East Indies and typically acquired from Dutch East India Co. (VOC).

What is interesting is that this blade does not have the VOC balemark but is indeed dated with year in the manner of those blades, AND has the typical 'Passau' running wolf chop mark.

The year seems to be the proper year (as with VOC blades) where Solingen blades with the running wolf often have numeric sequences thought to be talismanic (magic) numbers such as 1414 (most common) or 1441 and occasionally other numbers.

Thus the running wolf and year date are incongruent theoretically, however obviously they are authentically placed. It has often been surmised that numbers of Solingen smiths worked in the Netherlands and in fact made the blades for the Dutch VOC swords. Perhaps this blade was produced in circumstances where these conventions transposed?

One step further, perhaps this blade was made WITH this type of chopper point in the manner of the ambiguous 'scimitar' form, which did exist in some European interpretations of exotic blades in the mid 18th c. (as shown in the image of an 18th c apparent blacksmith made blade in colonies).

The line drawings from Richard Burton (1884, p.140) illustrate types of swords with similar rebated points, and while somewhat fanciful in the identifications these give an idea of the perceptions of 'exotic' swords generally held over the years to that time. Clearly through the conduit of trade networks and vessels bringing in these influences these notions must have been widely adopted.

Interested Party · 29th October 2024, 04:48 PM

And if I remember correctly, you got a heck of a deal on that blade. Good score!

Sajen · 29th October 2024, 07:41 PM

Hi Jeff,

Now you have two different opinions!

I guess that you will know more by cleaning the blade, when it's a local blade you will have an easy job, when it's indeed a Solingen blade you will have a hard job!

Regards,
Detlef

Jim McDougall · 29th October 2024, 09:34 PM

IMO this is NOT a local blade, but as I noted either Solingen or a German maker situated in Netherlands made it. Local makers would not have reproduced either the wolf nor especially the date (the numerals are following the exact character of Solingen examples).

What is interesting is whether or not the blade form was intended for trade in the manner of many blades in the 19th c. which were destined for colonial markets i.e. takouba and kaskara North Africa; Spanish motto blades for the Americas.

These kinds of situations were one factor of creating the European Armoury as the use of European blades in ethnographic weapons was commonplace. The work by Briggs (1965) on European blades in Tuareg weapons is a most valuable work on European blade markings.

Fascinating example! Thank you for posting!

JeffS · Yesterday, 06:27 AM

Thank you for the comments. Here are some better pictures. I'm still working on the rust. The 4 stamp is only partially visible. On the reverse the date is in the same orientation as the wolf, the 4 is missing and the 8 poorly struck with the partial number offset significantly to the right. There is a pit in the general area of the 4 which could have been the location of a partial numeral. I do not know what to look for regarding evidence of modification of the tip. The distal taper narrows evenly, 2.3mm where the fuller ends and 1mm at tip. If modified, I don't think it was significantly shortened. The blade has nice flex and, though corroded, has better grain and is far more homogenous than a Timor group VOC example I have pictured at bottom. The date stamp is similar in year and style as the VOC example.
There is much discussion on the running wolf stamp, but this appears to be the first SE Asian example on the forum. From the discussion I've skimmed, the Passau wolf chop was mostly discontinued in 17C, however this blade is dated 18C. The mark most resembles the 16C example third up on right of the diagram Jim provided but I don't think we can read too deeply into the subtle distinctions of these later chop marks as dating clues. Could the blade be significantly older than the date stamp?

29th October 2024, 09:41 AM	#1
JeffS Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 340	Running wolf on Timor sword Hello. I think this is my first post in this sub-forum. It was suggested that I post here for comments on this blade. This is found on a sword from Timor group of islands with characteristic rooster head pommel design. The sword may be from late 19th century or early 20th century but the blade apparently much older. Any comments would be appreciated. Note that this is as received and not cleaned nor rust removed yet. Attached Images

29th October 2024, 02:52 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,941	This is MOST interesting! and while technically 'ethnographic' (as the sword as mounted is) the blade is of course a Solingen type blade of the 18th c. It seems the blade may have had the point rebated into the chopper type blades favored in these archipelagos of the East Indies and typically acquired from Dutch East India Co. (VOC). What is interesting is that this blade does not have the VOC balemark but is indeed dated with year in the manner of those blades, AND has the typical 'Passau' running wolf chop mark. The year seems to be the proper year (as with VOC blades) where Solingen blades with the running wolf often have numeric sequences thought to be talismanic (magic) numbers such as 1414 (most common) or 1441 and occasionally other numbers. Thus the running wolf and year date are incongruent theoretically, however obviously they are authentically placed. It has often been surmised that numbers of Solingen smiths worked in the Netherlands and in fact made the blades for the Dutch VOC swords. Perhaps this blade was produced in circumstances where these conventions transposed? One step further, perhaps this blade was made WITH this type of chopper point in the manner of the ambiguous 'scimitar' form, which did exist in some European interpretations of exotic blades in the mid 18th c. (as shown in the image of an 18th c apparent blacksmith made blade in colonies). The line drawings from Richard Burton (1884, p.140) illustrate types of swords with similar rebated points, and while somewhat fanciful in the identifications these give an idea of the perceptions of 'exotic' swords generally held over the years to that time. Clearly through the conduit of trade networks and vessels bringing in these influences these notions must have been widely adopted. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 29th October 2024 at 03:47 PM.

Yesterday, 06:27 AM	#6
JeffS Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 340	Thank you for the comments. Here are some better pictures. I'm still working on the rust. The 4 stamp is only partially visible. On the reverse the date is in the same orientation as the wolf, the 4 is missing and the 8 poorly struck with the partial number offset significantly to the right. There is a pit in the general area of the 4 which could have been the location of a partial numeral. I do not know what to look for regarding evidence of modification of the tip. The distal taper narrows evenly, 2.3mm where the fuller ends and 1mm at tip. If modified, I don't think it was significantly shortened. The blade has nice flex and, though corroded, has better grain and is far more homogenous than a Timor group VOC example I have pictured at bottom. The date stamp is similar in year and style as the VOC example. There is much discussion on the running wolf stamp, but this appears to be the first SE Asian example on the forum. From the discussion I've skimmed, the Passau wolf chop was mostly discontinued in 17C, however this blade is dated 18C. The mark most resembles the 16C example third up on right of the diagram Jim provided but I don't think we can read too deeply into the subtle distinctions of these later chop marks as dating clues. Could the blade be significantly older than the date stamp? Attached Images

29th October 2024, 04:48 PM	#3
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 464	And if I remember correctly, you got a heck of a deal on that blade. Good score!

29th October 2024, 07:41 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,765	Hi Jeff, Now you have two different opinions! I guess that you will know more by cleaning the blade, when it's a local blade you will have an easy job, when it's indeed a Solingen blade you will have a hard job! Regards, Detlef

29th October 2024, 09:34 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,941	IMO this is NOT a local blade, but as I noted either Solingen or a German maker situated in Netherlands made it. Local makers would not have reproduced either the wolf nor especially the date (the numerals are following the exact character of Solingen examples). What is interesting is whether or not the blade form was intended for trade in the manner of many blades in the 19th c. which were destined for colonial markets i.e. takouba and kaskara North Africa; Spanish motto blades for the Americas. These kinds of situations were one factor of creating the European Armoury as the use of European blades in ethnographic weapons was commonplace. The work by Briggs (1965) on European blades in Tuareg weapons is a most valuable work on European blade markings. Fascinating example! Thank you for posting!