![]() |
![]() |
#1 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa.
Posts: 126
|
![]()
As a new member I heartily greet you all. The keris is a brand new interest of mine, and my head is swimming with the new information I have gleaned so far from all kinds of sources. I realize that therein also lies the danger of my being misinformed. That's why I have the greatest of expectations from this forum and I will do my best to make my contributions worthwhile.
I got this keris from an antique dealer who is a family member, and all indications point to it being a Java keris: ukiran, warangka,gandar and pendok all say the same thing. I going to try my hand at posting a few pics, which I hope will be sharp and clear. My first concern is whether I am on a sound footing when I suspect this keris is a genuine antique dating from before 1945. Secondly, I am very much interested to identify the blade pamor. I think it is mlumah. My biggest disadvantage is that this keris is the first and only one I have seen and handled in my 70 years! I am looking forwards to intimately studying this remarkable edged weapon. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,098
|
![]()
Welcome to the forum Johan. I can certainly understand why your head would be spinning for your various sources of information and you are wise to suspect that there is a lot of misleading or outright false information to be found out there on these marvelous blades. And then many things are simply a matter of differences of opinion or belief systems that can't ever truly be settled. My best advice to you would be to take some time searching our archives where you will find all these various opinions, along with a few cold, hard facts, living in residence.
![]() As for your first keris, we could certainly use some larger photos, but they do seem relatively sharp and clear. From what i can see it is indeed an antique keris from Jawa. If you posted photos of the sheath and the hilt we good even place it, dress wise, in a more specific area of that island. I can't really see the pamor pattern very well in these pictures, but the blade looks a bit out of stain anyway so even better photos might not give us a clear answer. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa.
Posts: 126
|
![]()
Thank you so much David. I will certainly do what you suggest, and start to build a kind of "book of facts" concerning this keris. I am very thankful that I managed to get hold of this one in the undamaged condition it is. The warangka however had separated from the gandar-pendok unit and I have re-attached same by merely using glue. It's nice and firm now.
The first of my various suspicions that I will try to confirm, is that there is no nickel-containing layers in this blade, which means that the blade will not show contrast, and that various iron layers (besides the steel core) are the only types of metal used in the crafting of this blade. Secondly, I am hoping that the layering in this blade and the combination of the layering will eventually lead to a decision on the era (tangguh) out of which this keris originated. Thirdly, I have provisionally established the pamor pattern as mlumah, because the lamination is parallel to the flat surface of the blade. I am hoping that my improved pics will help all you experienced guys out there to kindly comment further on this wonderful item that has come into my possession. I'm starting with one or two that I have, but others will have to be re-taken. Johan |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa.
Posts: 126
|
![]()
I really trust these pics are a bit better....
Johan |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 | |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,727
|
![]() Quote:
![]() Regards, Detlef |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,098
|
![]()
Thanks for the additional photos Johan. I would second Detlef's photo requests though.
This actually looks like a fairly decent old keris. Again, it is difficult to tell the pamor pattern without seeing this blade in full warangan stain, but i suspect the pattern might possibly be Sada Saler or perhaps one of the adeg (standing) pamor patterns. Last edited by David; 3rd October 2016 at 04:08 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 |
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,852
|
![]()
Based upon what I can presently see I am inclined to place this keris as North Coast, and towards the west. We do need to see full length images in order to place the origin of the complete keris.
The blade alone I also think is North Coast, towards the west. The blumbangan is boto rubuh, and that pretty much eliminates Central Jawa and (probably) most of East Jawa, additionally the ron dha is a bit outside acceptable parameters for Central Jawa and most of East Jawa. The pamor is an adeg pamor, maybe adeg sapu, but probably safer just to give it as adeg, which makes it pamor miring. Not a bad old keris, and in nice condition. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,287
|
![]()
A nice older keris; and I do think you have contrasting shades of metal there.
![]() Welcome Johan. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 |
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,852
|
![]()
Oh yes, I didn't mention the nickel question.
Many old Javanese keris do not contain nickel, but that does not mean that the pamor has no contrast. The contrast is provided by "white iron" = high phosphorus content iron. This white iron was a local product and was not suitable for tool or weapon production, so it was combined with the more expensive irons, mostly imported, to provide a usable product, the end result being pamor. This type of pamor does not jump up and bite you, like 19th century Bali pamor, but there is nearly always a sufficient degree of contrast to allow it to be clearly seen. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa.
Posts: 126
|
![]()
Sajen, David, Rick and Mr Maisey, it has truly been a long time since I have last enjoyed such satisfying reading! I thank you. By the end of the day I should have taken the pics that you request (or as far as possible with the apparatus at my disposal, which is not too high-tech), and I am further anxious to read what you might have to say when the pics are posted. I am already bristling with questions, but I will listen to some soothing music while I re-read the fact-filled comments you sent, of which there are a good many I did not comprehend. You can be sure I'll gladly investigate them!
Johan |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#11 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa.
Posts: 126
|
![]()
Oh to be technologically gifted! (Sigh!) Here goes some pics, for better or worse.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#12 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa.
Posts: 126
|
![]()
Please see my latest pics, and this one of the ukiran. I have read that the shape of this type of ukiran symbolises a human form, but other sources say it is meant to resemble a god in a squat or stooped position. Discernable with the required imagination is the form's back, the back of the head, the crown, forehead, nose, face and stomach. Could you please comment on this seeming ambiguity?
I have read that this form of the ukiran with its seven planes or flats has the Sarakarta shape, which is around the city of Solo in Central and Eastern Java. Mr Maisey has said that the blade is North Coast, towards the west. If this ukiran is indeed Central Java, does it mean the two have come from different parts of the island? Could you perhaps identify the type of wood of this ukiran for me? And a last question: how is it that the patra (cecekan) resembles a kala face? As you can see, I have done some homework, so as not to put you to too much trouble, but I realise a little bit of quick knowledge can be dangerous. Your comments are very valuable to me! So please tell me what you think. Johan |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#13 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,740
|
![]() Quote:
Surkarta is the former name from Solo, it is still used for kris matters especially. From the pics, the stained wood of the hilt seems to be timoho pelet. Regards |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#14 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,727
|
![]()
Hello Johan,
I have rotated two of your pictures for a better view. Like Alan I think that your keris coming from the North Coast, also the cross piece of the scabbard let me think like this, nice keris! Nice and not often seen wrongko. ![]() ![]() Regards, Detlef |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#15 |
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,852
|
![]()
Good questions Johan.
To clarify a point:- In 1745 the House of Mataram relocated from Kartasura to Surakarta. This became necessary because the throne of Kartasura had been contaminated by civil rebellion, so the ruler of Kartasura sent out his representatives to find a new location for the Karaton (the place of the Ratu --- ruler --- ke-ratu-an = karaton =kraton) a suitable place was located in the valley of the Bengawan (Solo River), the name of the place was Solo. When the Karaton relocated it was given the name of Surakarta Hadiningrat. Karaton Surakarta Hadiningrat is the name of the walled city that is the dwelling place and seat of the principal branch of the House of Mataram. By extension, all the area that was formerly under the control of the ruler is known as Surakarta, but within this area there are various towns and villages, the major city is Solo, the old name of this area prior to 1745. The city of Solo contains the Karaton of Surakarta, and shares its name. The popular abbreviation for Surakarta is SKA. and this abbreviation can be seen on public buses and in other usages. Surakarta is more formal, Solo is more colloquial. The first thing that must be understood about Javanese symbolism is that it is multi symbolism:- there is no one correct answer. The same symbol can and does have many interpretations according to the circumstances and situation. The most usual, and the easiest to understand, of the interpretations of the faceted Javanese hilt is that it came into being in response to the Islamic prohibition on representing living things as physical objects. In Hindu Jawa, keris hilts were mostly figural and were associated with both the ancestors and with various deities. The multi-faceted hilt was an old Javanese form, and this was enhanced with carvings that were sufficiently abstracted to be acceptable to Islamic norms. These carvings are believed to be the vestigial remnants of the old figures which were previously used as hilts. In Javanese thought the actual figure of the deity/ancestor does not need to be present, the only thing that needs to be present is the belief that the ancestor is constantly with one, thus the patra can be interpreted as "memory hooks" to constantly remind one of the presence of the deity/ancestor. This is a classical interpretation, and I have no doubt at all that very few present day Javanese people are even aware of this. Johan, you have asked about the "Kala face". I am aware that this term "Kala" is thrown around fairly freely, but in fact Kala is Yama, the judge of the dead; "kala" is also the abstract idea of "time". The deity Bhoma, who is actually a deity of growth and nature is sometimes called "Kala", but in fact the two are opposites that take quite a bit of philosophical thought to reconcile. The patra can more readily be understood as a generic interpretation as I have outlined above. It is unlikely that Bhoma alone was fixed upon as the model for the distillation that is the patra. Bhoma in an iconographic sense can be interpreted as a protective element. However, if we do wish to include Bhoma/Kala as an element represented in the patra, this can be understood as the inclusion of an additional protective element, as well as, not instead of, the ancestors. Mankind is surrounded by an unseen world that is full of dark forces and evil, and it is impossible to have too much protection against this evil. The wood used in the hilt looks like it might be timoho. I massaged the image of the hilt a bit to more clearly see it, I hope you don't mind. In respect of the possible mix of the component parts of this keris. The mix of keris components is not at all unusual, in fact, if we consider the entire world population of keris, it is probably the norm,. Generally speaking, serious collectors prefer that all the component parts of a keris share a single origin, but at the present time many keris do exist which have genuine societally correct matings of blades from one place, scabbards from another place, hilts from somewhere else. There are many legitimate --- as well as illegitimate --- reasons for this. As an example only:- if a Madurese man served as a mercenary for a Central Javanese lord, he would need to change at least the hilt of his keris to a form acceptable to his employer; if the scabbard for the keris was too far different to a Central Javanese form, he would change that as well. Another factor that might explain the presence of a Central Javanese hilt form on a keris from a different area is that for some time now this planar form has become almost ubiquitous, just as the Surakarta form of dress has become almost the national standard. The overall form of the Surakarta hilt is supposed to express the posture of a man in the presence of his lord, thus the slightly bowed "head" of the hilt, and the human terminology. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#16 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,740
|
![]()
Excellent explanation Alan, thanks!
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#17 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa.
Posts: 126
|
![]()
I was very pleased to have read all your comments, and thank you. Especially Mr Maisey has gone out of his way to give some serious thought, but I appreciate every reaction, even small. Amongst others, I have now as a result researched timoho wood and have noticed the opinions on the dark spots being caused by fungal growth.
I have a further question on the wrangka of my keris. In comparing many pics of the basic shape called ladrang, of which mine is an example, I came under the impression of the outlines of the keel, bow and stern of a boat. I suppose the boat design is simply reminiscent of the Indonesian countries having seafaring people living in them. I was wondering why the upturned ends of my wrangka does not rise so tall as those I have seen the pics of. There is no indication whatsoever that my wrangka had lost its high point due to breakage. Everything looks fine. Perhaps the very high swirling bow and stern are more modern? Another question: both the ladrang and gayaman shapes seem to be Javanese, but what position would these two different shapes enjoy in their everyday use? Are they both held in the same esteem? And a last question today, if you will be so kind: the wood my wrangka was made of does not seem to be timoho. Some comment on what you reckon it might be? Perhaps kemuning or trembalo? Johan |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#18 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,098
|
![]()
Johan, in response to some of your questions regarding your sheath, ladrang sheaths are for formal occasions (weddings, court, etc.) while gayaman sheaths are for everyday use. I am not sure if one is necessarily held in higher esteem, it is simply a matter of application.
As Detlef has already remarked, your sheath (wrongko) is of a lesser seen variety, so no, it has not been re-worked from a normal ladrang sheath. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#19 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,740
|
![]()
Hello Johan,
According to the book "Keris dan senjata pusaka bahari", your warangka is in perahu labuh ( a type of boat it would seem) style from Cirebon. The S shaped rib on the right side of your picture is an additional indicator besides the slightly curved ends. By the way the pendok (metal oversheath) seems inverted, the carved side should be on the front of the scabbard. Your warangka seems to be made from kemuning from the pics but other options are possible, a better picture would help. Regards ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#20 |
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,852
|
![]()
Keris scabbards from before about 1400 seem to have been squarish in shape, somewhat similar to the scabbards that we now think of as Bugis.
By the first half of the 15th century a ladrangan style seems to have evolved. There has been a theory floating around for a long time that the "boat" shape of some scabbards is in recognition of the ancestors having travelled by sea to settle in Jawa. I personally doubt this theory because the early ladrangan styles did not look nearly as boat-like as the much later Central Javanese styles, nor for that matter as boat-like as the North Coast styles, such as the one under discussion. My own feeling is that we simply have an instance of artistic advance. I agree that kemuning might be a good bet for the scabbard wood. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#21 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa.
Posts: 126
|
![]()
David, Jean & Mr Maisey, I am loath to ask more questions and put you to further trouble, but I cannot help myself. Your kind comments only serve to whet my interest further in regard to this awesome keris. (I have taken serious note of your advice so far and am amplifying my "Java Keris Book of Facts" as I go along.) May there be some more Q & A's before you lose patience with me!
Noting what was said above about the inverted metal oversheath: When I received this keris and sheath, the wrangka was separated from the bunton-type gandar/pendok unit. I could not get confirmation from the owner that the warangka and pendok/gandar actually belonged to one another. He simply did not know, but he said he got it in that condition. I gently tried to fit the warangka to the rest of the sheath first the one way around, then the other. The way it is now, glued together by me, is the way it fitted best. I admit I let myself be led by this fit. The other way around was very ill-fitting. Now this might spell out that the two components do not belong to one another - the inverted fit being better merely by coincidence. In addition, the brass oversheath has floral/leafy designs on the one side, and looking at the indentations carefully, I think they were stamped in with punches and hammer, not incised/carved. If the quality of the oversheath is inferior to the quality of the wrangka, it might suggest the two do not match. Depending on your comments, I might have to detach and re-attach the wrangka other way round? Lastly, I am wondering about the pendok variation I have. It cannot be cukitan, because the design is not pierced, nor is it carved (krawangan). Is it a known variation when the decoration is by punch? Johan |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#22 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa.
Posts: 126
|
![]()
To show the punchwork. I hope it is clear enough!
Johan |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#23 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,727
|
![]()
Dear Johan,
I have attached a picture from a keris in front side view, it's the show side. Normally is a pendok only put-on over the wooden gandar. So you need only to reverse the pendok when possible. Pendoks can be engraved or punched (from front or the back). I haven't noticed until now that the pendok is decorated! ![]() ![]() You should provide better and bigger pictures. ![]() Regards, Detlef |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#24 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,740
|
![]()
Hello Johan,
Thank you for the pic of the top part of the engraved pendok. It is of common quality, probably not from the North Coast, and if you reverse it as it should be, there will be some exposed wood at the top of the gandar on one side as the top of the pendok is not symmetrical, so you will have to file it. Considering the quality and condition of the pendok (bumps), I would try to replace it if I were you.... Regards Edit: Sorry, I missed your post#21 so I understand the situation but it does not significantly change my reaction. ![]() Last edited by Jean; 7th October 2016 at 08:45 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#25 |
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,852
|
![]()
Johan, we really do need full length photos, front and back, before we can make any worthwhile comment on this pendok.
As has already been said, it is probably incorrect for this wrongko, in fact from what little I can see, it looks like it might be a Jogja pendok. However, if it is incorrect it might be somewhere between difficult and impossible to get hold of a correct pendok. Could you please let us see full length, front and back pics of the pendok? |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#26 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa.
Posts: 126
|
![]()
Hi guys, I'm trying to post good additional pics....Having listened carefully to your comments, I have decided to detach the pendok, which fortunately came off allright. See pics, made larger as you recommended....
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#27 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,727
|
![]()
The pendok isn't from Yogya IMVHO but from Solo or Banyumas, I am unsure but Alan will know exactly. But it's cut in up like a Yogya pendok to fit this scabbard. Like Alan has pointed out already it will be more as difficult to find the correct pendok for this keris in question so I would let it with this keris. But I would try to get out the dents, you can work for this a simple wooden tool in form of a slim massive gandar or borrow from your wife a wooden spoon with long handle. And like Jean already write you will need to fit it new in up.
Regards, Detlef |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#28 |
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,852
|
![]()
Yes, not Jogja.
As Detlef says, maybe Solo, maybe Banyumas, or maybe just generic Central Jawa. Again, as detlef has advised, use something long enough and rounded to work out the dents from the inside. The proper tool for this is a sanglon, which is bronze or brass in the form of a gandar and is what is mostly used to form the gandar when it is being made. A substitute for this tool is just anything that will do the job without breaking. A piece of oval shaped hardwood works quite well. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#29 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa.
Posts: 126
|
![]()
Gentlemen, I am truly honoured to have come so far with this thread, thanks to your willingness to supply your valued comments to my questions! I will definitely follow your advice.
I know this thread can't go on forever (!) so I would now ask you to bear with me one more time. This is the final aspect of my Javanese keris, the blade. Afterwards I will retire from this thread and devote much time to digest all your information you have kindly given me. 1 Taking everything you have said into account, I now believe this keris blade was made between 1800 and 1900. Would that be a fair guess? 2 What would the significance/meaning be of the sogokan on the sorsoran of my keris blade? (I have actually read somewhere that some call them blood grooves!) 3 What kind of hardened tool could the empus have used to chisel these magnificent features of the ricikan into the metal of the sorsoran? Surely, a job like this requires high quality tool steel! Was it available in those olden days? 4 I understand the ron dha to be only one single, specific indentation on the greneng. Would I be correct? 5 You have considereed the pamor of my keris to be adeg. Is that pattern only produced by twisting, or might there be another method of creating adeg? 6 Lastly, I have read that the two different "sides" of the sorsoran are called "front" and "rear", but are there not Javanese names that we call those "sides", the kembang kacang side and the pointed greneng side? THANK YOU! Johan |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#30 |
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,852
|
![]()
Really good questions Johan.
My responses are interpolated, and perhaps some of our other members may have something to add Gentlemen, I am truly honoured to have come so far with this thread, thanks to your willingness to supply your valued comments to my questions! I will definitely follow your advice. I know this thread can't go on forever (!) so I would now ask you to bear with me one more time. This is the final aspect of my Javanese keris, the blade. Afterwards I will retire from this thread and devote much time to digest all your information you have kindly given me. 1 Taking everything you have said into account, I now believe this keris blade was made between 1800 and 1900. Would that be a fair guess? Yes. 2 What would the significance/meaning be of the sogokan on the sorsoran of my keris blade? (I have actually read somewhere that some call them blood grooves!) The sogokan where it exists can be understood as a representation of the lingga, the primary icon of Siwa and of the male principle; the sogokan seems to have developed from the lines that are found in some early monumental representations of the keris and that follow the triangular blade shape, this triangular representation of a symbol of Siwa can be seen in the bronze Keris Buda shown in Image 25, and is occasionally found in much later blades. This is a quote from :- http://www.kerisattosanaji.co/INTERPRETATIONPAGE1.html 3 What kind of hardened tool could the empus have used to chisel these magnificent features of the ricikan into the metal of the sorsoran? Surely, a job like this requires high quality tool steel! Was it available in those olden days? Very old keris --- say, pre-16th century --- were probably carved by using stones to create the topographic features, even in the 19th century some village smiths in Jawa used stones as both anvil and hammer. In the 20th century, although we did not use stones to create the topographic features, some keris makers did use stones and abrasives made from crushed stones to refine and polish keris blades. Files, cold chisels, and scrapers are the traditional tools used by keris makers through historic times, and before the second half of the 20th century they made their own tools from scratch. I was taught during the 1980's, and it was necessary for me to make some of the tools that I used, by the modification of old factory made tools. Generally speaking, even today many, if not most, Javanese artist-craftsmen make their own tools. 4 I understand the ron dha to be only one single, specific indentation on the greneng. Would I be correct? Yes. The ron dha is the feature that is frequently found as part of the greneng that resembles the Javanese letter "dha". 5 You have considereed the pamor of my keris to be adeg. Is that pattern only produced by twisting, or might there be another method of creating adeg? Adeg pamors are not a twist pamor. Adeg pamors are produced by first welding a mlumah pamor, then changing the orientation of the layers so that when the core of the blade is welded between the two pieces of pamor material, that material is at 90 degrees to the blade core. 6 Lastly, I have read that the two different "sides" of the sorsoran are called "front" and "rear", but are there not Javanese names that we call those "sides", the kembang kacang side and the pointed greneng side? Front sogokan = sogokan ngajeng, back sogokan = sogokan wingking The kembang kacang is the front of the blade. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|