Real Muramasa?

ariel · 26th July 2009, 11:01 PM

This one just ended.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...torefresh=true
The seller intimates that the blade was made by Muramasa ( the ONE!!!).
I am not into Nihonto, but am rather intrigued: not every day one can see something like that.
Any opinions?

BerberDagger · 27th July 2009, 03:53 PM

Hi,
the blade are very very particular but I think that they are gimei ; a real muramasa blade is very rare and the owner probably send blade to Japan for shinsha before to sell them!

Jim McDougall · 27th July 2009, 05:15 PM

Although I have never been a student of the nihonto (=Japanese sword), it is hard for most who have ever studied edged weapons in virtually any field to not have heard the legends of Muramasa.

Since we have wide readership, many of whom, as myself, are not that familiar with Muramasa, I thought I might add some overview to explain why an item with blade stated of this maker is so significant.

Sengo Muramasa, a fabled swordsmith who lived during the Muromachi Period (16th century) was apparantly a student of the Ise school of swordsmiths. The blades of Ise weapons were known for extreme sharpness.

The legend, as it became known, was of course that the blades of Muramasa fell out of favor with the Tokugawa shogunate when Tokugawa Leyasu became shogun in 1603. It was said that since he had lost many friends and relatives to these deadly blades, and when he badly cut himself with one, in anger he forbad his Samurai to possess them.
This led to the tales of the demonic cursed blades that had a thirst for blood, fueled by Japanese literature and drama of the period, and seemingly very much a precursor to the gunfighter styled myths of Americas wild west. Interestingly, several western movies are taken from Japanese stories of Samurai warriors, such as "The Seven Samurai".

Muramasa blades it would seem after this mandate, were often confiscated or destroyed, and certainly became difficult to obtain. Clearly those who opposed the Tokugawa very much desired these blades as they had been given such notoriety as deadly to that family. Certainly this led to forgeries.

Many of the original blades were said to have had markings signed on the tang obliterated, presumably on the examples owned by Samurai who did not want thier blades revealed to be Muramasa.

While this dirk is stated to have a blade with apparantly somewhat damaged or obscured signature believed to be Muramasa, it is difficult to believe a weapon with blade thought to be of this importance would not have been appraised (=shinsa). Weapons with such fabulous pedigree it would seem would be worthy of this essential documentation.
There are few fields of weapons collecting as formidable in expense or in extremely complex and detailed knowledge as nihonto, but by the same token, few have the type of appraisal networks and resources these weapons have.
Usually it is not necessary to have the weapon sent to Japan, since it seems these professional appraisal groups from Japan often come to the U.S. to seek weapons for appraisal. While I am sure there may be instances of some fraudulent activity attracted to such lucrative items, naturally the authentic organizations are as would be expected, most honorable.

An intriguing item, and my best wishes to the buyer. Hopefully they will pursue further the history of this interesting dirk.

Best regards,
Jim

trenchwarfare · 27th July 2009, 06:09 PM

I have heard that, for every 10 swords, with famous signatures, 8 are fakes. The other 2 are questionable.

Rich · 27th July 2009, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trenchwarfare

I have heard that, for every 10 swords, with famous signatures, 8 are fakes. The other 2 are questionable.

I've heard that for every 10 swords by famous smiths, 11 are fakes !

Rich S

Jim McDougall · 28th July 2009, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

I've heard that for every 10 swords by famous smiths, 11 are fakes !

Rich S

Oh Rich! Ive told ya a million times not to exaggerate!!!

Seriously, glad to see you in on this, few people I know can touch your knowledge on nihonto (now that I looked the word up and hope Im using it correctly

All best regards,
Jim

sirupate · 28th July 2009, 12:45 PM

I have my serious doubts about it being a Muramasa, I've only ever handled one Muramasa in some 34 years!

Jim McDougall · 28th July 2009, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirupate

I have my serious doubts about it being a Muramasa, I've only ever handled one Muramasa in some 34 years!

That is fantastic Sirupate! Thats a monumental one more than I've even come close to. It would really be exciting to actually handle one of these legendary blades, and more on the one you handled? I love to hear about these kind of adventures.

All the best,
Jim

Atlantia · 28th July 2009, 10:45 PM

Not a lot to add, in fact I find my thoughts esentially mirroring Jims. I do think that if this were a definate Muramasa, then eBay would be the last place to sell it.
I have no data on the current market value of a genuine tanto blade of this maker, but I would have thought significantly more than 5k?

Anything like this should be in a specialist auction where the auction house can add its 'weight' to the validity of the piece, and buyers or their agents can handle the thing in person.

I wonder if the seller had it appraised and the best opinion offered was that its probobly a 17thC forgery.

That said, it looks a nice blade, and the price is certainly a goodly wad of cash! I'd be interested to know where its path leads now.

Well, assuming its new owner can resist the urge to go on a killing spree or do himself in with it

sirupate · 29th July 2009, 07:29 PM

Hello Jim,

Sorry for the late reply, it was a good 23-25 years ago now and I was very lucky to be shown it by a top UK collector, who had it in his collection. It was the first Japanese sword that I held with a legendry name, and I had only been collecting for a little bit then, being more involved with the MA side of Japanese swords.
I was totaly in awe of the beautiful sword and a little bit nervous about handling it, protocol being followed exactly, it was the first time I was asked to have a silk cloth put in my mouth so moisture wouldn't accidentley get on the blade!!
I was also relieved when I didn't get any urges to go round cutting people with it!!

Cheers Simon

Jim McDougall · 29th July 2009, 08:20 PM

Thank you Simon for sharing that story. I always enjoy hearing about others adventures in collecting, as I know I always enjoy recounting my own. Somehow it just seems to add real dimension to this passion we all pursue.
I can well imagine the precautions one would understandably insist upon with such an incredibly valuable and legendary swords.

I once met one of the travelling appraisal company's while in Nashville, after going to the hotel location where they were set up. In asking questions, the obviously in charge appraiser only spoke in Japanese through a translator. I had brought a photo of a Korean sword to ask about it and his expression quickly tightened as if he was almost offended by looking at it. The translator indicated he had no idea what 'that' sword was, and I almost wish I could have known what he really said. I had forgotten that Japanese/Korean relations had not traditionally been the best.

I was shown however some of the swords that had been acquired that day, and one which looked remarkably new, was said to be 500 years old. In seeing the well patinated tang the contrast was amazing.

Thanks again Simon,
All the best,
Jim

26th July 2009, 11:01 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Real Muramasa? This one just ended. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...torefresh=true The seller intimates that the blade was made by Muramasa ( the ONE!!!). I am not into Nihonto, but am rather intrigued: not every day one can see something like that. Any opinions?

27th July 2009, 03:53 PM	#2
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	Hi, the blade are very very particular but I think that they are gimei ; a real muramasa blade is very rare and the owner probably send blade to Japan for shinsha before to sell them!

27th July 2009, 05:15 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Although I have never been a student of the nihonto (=Japanese sword), it is hard for most who have ever studied edged weapons in virtually any field to not have heard the legends of Muramasa. Since we have wide readership, many of whom, as myself, are not that familiar with Muramasa, I thought I might add some overview to explain why an item with blade stated of this maker is so significant. Sengo Muramasa, a fabled swordsmith who lived during the Muromachi Period (16th century) was apparantly a student of the Ise school of swordsmiths. The blades of Ise weapons were known for extreme sharpness. The legend, as it became known, was of course that the blades of Muramasa fell out of favor with the Tokugawa shogunate when Tokugawa Leyasu became shogun in 1603. It was said that since he had lost many friends and relatives to these deadly blades, and when he badly cut himself with one, in anger he forbad his Samurai to possess them. This led to the tales of the demonic cursed blades that had a thirst for blood, fueled by Japanese literature and drama of the period, and seemingly very much a precursor to the gunfighter styled myths of Americas wild west. Interestingly, several western movies are taken from Japanese stories of Samurai warriors, such as "The Seven Samurai". Muramasa blades it would seem after this mandate, were often confiscated or destroyed, and certainly became difficult to obtain. Clearly those who opposed the Tokugawa very much desired these blades as they had been given such notoriety as deadly to that family. Certainly this led to forgeries. Many of the original blades were said to have had markings signed on the tang obliterated, presumably on the examples owned by Samurai who did not want thier blades revealed to be Muramasa. While this dirk is stated to have a blade with apparantly somewhat damaged or obscured signature believed to be Muramasa, it is difficult to believe a weapon with blade thought to be of this importance would not have been appraised (=shinsa). Weapons with such fabulous pedigree it would seem would be worthy of this essential documentation. There are few fields of weapons collecting as formidable in expense or in extremely complex and detailed knowledge as nihonto, but by the same token, few have the type of appraisal networks and resources these weapons have. Usually it is not necessary to have the weapon sent to Japan, since it seems these professional appraisal groups from Japan often come to the U.S. to seek weapons for appraisal. While I am sure there may be instances of some fraudulent activity attracted to such lucrative items, naturally the authentic organizations are as would be expected, most honorable. An intriguing item, and my best wishes to the buyer. Hopefully they will pursue further the history of this interesting dirk. Best regards, Jim

27th July 2009, 06:09 PM	#4
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	I have heard that, for every 10 swords, with famous signatures, 8 are fakes. The other 2 are questionable.

28th July 2009, 12:45 PM	#7
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	I have my serious doubts about it being a Muramasa, I've only ever handled one Muramasa in some 34 years!

28th July 2009, 10:45 PM	#9
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Not a lot to add, in fact I find my thoughts esentially mirroring Jims. I do think that if this were a definate Muramasa, then eBay would be the last place to sell it. I have no data on the current market value of a genuine tanto blade of this maker, but I would have thought significantly more than 5k? Anything like this should be in a specialist auction where the auction house can add its 'weight' to the validity of the piece, and buyers or their agents can handle the thing in person. I wonder if the seller had it appraised and the best opinion offered was that its probobly a 17thC forgery. That said, it looks a nice blade, and the price is certainly a goodly wad of cash! I'd be interested to know where its path leads now. Well, assuming its new owner can resist the urge to go on a killing spree or do himself in with it

29th July 2009, 07:29 PM	#10
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Hello Jim, Sorry for the late reply, it was a good 23-25 years ago now and I was very lucky to be shown it by a top UK collector, who had it in his collection. It was the first Japanese sword that I held with a legendry name, and I had only been collecting for a little bit then, being more involved with the MA side of Japanese swords. I was totaly in awe of the beautiful sword and a little bit nervous about handling it, protocol being followed exactly, it was the first time I was asked to have a silk cloth put in my mouth so moisture wouldn't accidentley get on the blade!! I was also relieved when I didn't get any urges to go round cutting people with it!! Cheers Simon

29th July 2009, 08:20 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Thank you Simon for sharing that story. I always enjoy hearing about others adventures in collecting, as I know I always enjoy recounting my own. Somehow it just seems to add real dimension to this passion we all pursue. I can well imagine the precautions one would understandably insist upon with such an incredibly valuable and legendary swords. I once met one of the travelling appraisal company's while in Nashville, after going to the hotel location where they were set up. In asking questions, the obviously in charge appraiser only spoke in Japanese through a translator. I had brought a photo of a Korean sword to ask about it and his expression quickly tightened as if he was almost offended by looking at it. The translator indicated he had no idea what 'that' sword was, and I almost wish I could have known what he really said. I had forgotten that Japanese/Korean relations had not traditionally been the best. I was shown however some of the swords that had been acquired that day, and one which looked remarkably new, was said to be 500 years old. In seeing the well patinated tang the contrast was amazing. Thanks again Simon, All the best, Jim