Indian dagger?

Tim Simmons · 29th January 2009, 04:16 PM

Stepping out of the comfort zone, I was surprised to win this knife. I know Greek, Balkan and Ottoman knives have eared or cloven handles but this looks Indian/Afghan?? Apparently it is 14 inches long in the scabbard. I will show better pics when I have it. looks as if it may be old.

Lew · 29th January 2009, 04:22 PM

Yataghan ears seems Turkish to me?

Lew

Atlantia · 29th January 2009, 04:24 PM

Nice win Tim.
I was going to have a punt at that one, just remembered it and rushed to the PC after thinking 'Oh Bugger! Has it ended'

Yes, and I wasn't even close!
Oh well.
Go way too engrossed in working.

Looks nice, I thought 19thC.

Glad it went to one of the 'gang'

At least I'll get to see good pics when you've got it in-hand.

(if there was a crying smilie I'd put it here)

Regards
Gene

TVV · 29th January 2009, 05:30 PM

To me it has a Central Asian feeling. When you clean it, it would be certainly worth a light etch.
Regards,
Teodor

Tim Simmons · 29th January 2009, 07:20 PM

This picture shows why at first thought I Afghanistan. I cannot enlarge it any more as it breaks up more. The row of triangle at the forte and bolster have some similarity to Afghan and North Indian work.

Norman McCormick · 29th January 2009, 07:49 PM

Hi Tim,
I too was interested in having a shot at this one, wife and one overlong shopping trip put paid to the 'well laid plans'. Looks really interesting perhaps cross cultural. Anyway enough rambling, very well caught and I look forward to seeing better photos when you get it.
Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 29th January 2009, 07:56 PM

"...is this a dagger which I see before me?"
Macbeth II, i, 33

Yay!!!

Most definitely 'Central Asia', which includes Afghanistan and Uzbekistan and some of the other 'stans'.....but not sure if geopolitically Pakistan or NW Frontier where similiar items are still produced or at least reworked, is in the Central Asia denominator (at least this week

.

The hilt reminds me of Uzbek/Afghan 'shashkas' which are actually tough to discern in difference, and different than the 19th century Uzbek sabres shown in Torben Flindt's "Some Nineteenth Century Arms from Bukhara" (R.Elgood, ed, "Islamic Arms & Armour", London, 1979, p.22).

The dagger blade suggests a form of pesh kabz in the rather confusing confluence of these regional forms which include karud, pesh kabz, choora, bard, bytchak et al. It seems the Afghan pesh kabz typically has a more hooked, non cleft pommel (Holstein, 1931, plate XX, #12, which is captioned from Bhawalpur, Sind ), and an inset in varying degree at the base of the blade.Many of these are reinforced for mail piercing which brings in the collective term zirah bonk (Persian term). Good point Tim notes on the triangular motif in linear at forte, an Afghan amuletic affectation in folk religion of there and other Central Asian regions.

Best regards,
Jim

Atlantia · 30th January 2009, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

This picture shows why at first thought I Afghanistan. I cannot enlarge it any more as it breaks up more. The row of triangle at the forte and bolster have some similarity to Afghan and North Indian work.

Yup, that was my thoughts too Tim.
I thought initially it might be as far west as eastern Europe but in the end the metalwork made me think it must be Afghan or a closely related 'stan' (as Jim says).
In any event I think you got a bargain and I think it just goes to show that if an item ends at an inconvienient time of day then a lot of potential buyers will miss it and a bargain can be had!
Well done!
I also think a close inspection and possible etching of the blade would be a good idea and I'm expecting a whole thread full of bragging pictures when it arrives

Tim Simmons · 5th February 2009, 09:18 PM

Arrived today and cleaned of rust. Very interesting knife. No fancy steel, there is layering but that is just incidental to forging a hard blade. One might at first dismiss it as a little rough. That is untill, in my opinion one looks at the clay like malleablitiy of the metal. I like the way without any apparent hesitation the blade bolster and tang have all been formed in what appears an instant and the decoration follows on so confidently and naturally. I grant you that it is relativly simple in that it is not labourious, constructed, worked by many hands, but to me that is the essence of skill at the forge? Blade 22cm long, Bovine horn judging by the 3mm lamination bands looking inside the cloven parts. The scabbard is wood held together by a gut ring at the opening and whipped and resined grass like material at the other end. My pictures are not that helpful taken indoors but its all a bit damp and wet outside at the moment. Reminds me of African work. I wonder if it may have come from nomads on what was Persian/Afghan border? It does have a simple beauty?

Lew · 5th February 2009, 09:37 PM

Tim

You did a great clean up job on the dagger. Looks like a village black smith piece very neat piece I like it

Maybe Uzbek or one of the other Stans as Jim stated?

Lew

Norman McCormick · 6th February 2009, 08:44 PM

Hi Tim,
I really like the dagger, things that are made to use rather than decorate always, to me, seem to have a bit extra in the interest department. Although I'm not particularly knowledgeable I would think the blade has a somewhat Indian appearance and the grip looks to have some aspects of styling akin to pieces found closer to Ottoman influences. Reminds me a bit of this knife with regard to origin as it also appeared to have stylistic input from several regions. I wouldn't have minded at all adding your latest aquisition to my collection.
My Regards,
Norman.

Tim Simmons · 6th February 2009, 09:00 PM

I would think it is most probably from Turkmen nomads. Thier influence can be found in Persia/Afghanistan, most often in carpet design and the two areas were the recipient of British protection????

29th January 2009, 07:20 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	This picture shows why at first thought I Afghanistan. I cannot enlarge it any more as it breaks up more. The row of triangle at the forte and bolster have some similarity to Afghan and North Indian work. Attached Images

29th January 2009, 07:56 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	"...is this a dagger which I see before me?" Macbeth II, i, 33 Yay!!! Most definitely 'Central Asia', which includes Afghanistan and Uzbekistan and some of the other 'stans'.....but not sure if geopolitically Pakistan or NW Frontier where similiar items are still produced or at least reworked, is in the Central Asia denominator (at least this week. The hilt reminds me of Uzbek/Afghan 'shashkas' which are actually tough to discern in difference, and different than the 19th century Uzbek sabres shown in Torben Flindt's "Some Nineteenth Century Arms from Bukhara" (R.Elgood, ed, "Islamic Arms & Armour", London, 1979, p.22). The dagger blade suggests a form of pesh kabz in the rather confusing confluence of these regional forms which include karud, pesh kabz, choora, bard, bytchak et al. It seems the Afghan pesh kabz typically has a more hooked, non cleft pommel (Holstein, 1931, plate XX, #12, which is captioned from Bhawalpur, Sind ), and an inset in varying degree at the base of the blade.Many of these are reinforced for mail piercing which brings in the collective term zirah bonk (Persian term). Good point Tim notes on the triangular motif in linear at forte, an Afghan amuletic affectation in folk religion of there and other Central Asian regions. Best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 29th January 2009 at 10:15 PM.

5th February 2009, 09:18 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Arrived today and cleaned of rust. Very interesting knife. No fancy steel, there is layering but that is just incidental to forging a hard blade. One might at first dismiss it as a little rough. That is untill, in my opinion one looks at the clay like malleablitiy of the metal. I like the way without any apparent hesitation the blade bolster and tang have all been formed in what appears an instant and the decoration follows on so confidently and naturally. I grant you that it is relativly simple in that it is not labourious, constructed, worked by many hands, but to me that is the essence of skill at the forge? Blade 22cm long, Bovine horn judging by the 3mm lamination bands looking inside the cloven parts. The scabbard is wood held together by a gut ring at the opening and whipped and resined grass like material at the other end. My pictures are not that helpful taken indoors but its all a bit damp and wet outside at the moment. Reminds me of African work. I wonder if it may have come from nomads on what was Persian/Afghan border? It does have a simple beauty? Attached Images

5th February 2009, 09:37 PM	#10
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim You did a great clean up job on the dagger. Looks like a village black smith piece very neat piece I like it Maybe Uzbek or one of the other Stans as Jim stated? Lew Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 5th February 2009 at 10:42 PM.

6th February 2009, 08:44 PM	#11
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi Tim, I really like the dagger, things that are made to use rather than decorate always, to me, seem to have a bit extra in the interest department. Although I'm not particularly knowledgeable I would think the blade has a somewhat Indian appearance and the grip looks to have some aspects of styling akin to pieces found closer to Ottoman influences. Reminds me a bit of this knife with regard to origin as it also appeared to have stylistic input from several regions. I wouldn't have minded at all adding your latest aquisition to my collection. My Regards, Norman. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 6th February 2009 at 09:16 PM.

29th January 2009, 04:16 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Indian dagger? Stepping out of the comfort zone, I was surprised to win this knife. I know Greek, Balkan and Ottoman knives have eared or cloven handles but this looks Indian/Afghan?? Apparently it is 14 inches long in the scabbard. I will show better pics when I have it. looks as if it may be old. Attached Images

29th January 2009, 04:22 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Yataghan ears seems Turkish to me? Lew

29th January 2009, 04:24 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Nice win Tim. I was going to have a punt at that one, just remembered it and rushed to the PC after thinking 'Oh Bugger! Has it ended' Yes, and I wasn't even close! Oh well. Go way too engrossed in working. Looks nice, I thought 19thC. Glad it went to one of the 'gang' At least I'll get to see good pics when you've got it in-hand. (if there was a crying smilie I'd put it here) Regards Gene

29th January 2009, 05:30 PM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,620	To me it has a Central Asian feeling. When you clean it, it would be certainly worth a light etch. Regards, Teodor

29th January 2009, 07:49 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi Tim, I too was interested in having a shot at this one, wife and one overlong shopping trip put paid to the 'well laid plans'. Looks really interesting perhaps cross cultural. Anyway enough rambling, very well caught and I look forward to seeing better photos when you get it. Regards, Norman.

6th February 2009, 09:00 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I would think it is most probably from Turkmen nomads. Thier influence can be found in Persia/Afghanistan, most often in carpet design and the two areas were the recipient of British protection????