Blunderbuss for comments

[fernando]

Now, don't tell me this isn't good stuff .
This one we may call it Portuguese.
Indicative details would be the 'fluted' stock, the trigger guard and the inverted direction in which the fixation screw holds the barrel tang.
Basicaly from the end XVIII century, i would say.
The lock isn't Portuguese by style, but British, a rather common setup.
The large caliber approx. 25 m/m. The barrel length 54 cms. Total length 88 cms. Weight 4,5 Kgs.
Maybe (maybe) ther ramrod is not the original one; could have been a wooden one with a tip of fine material, to match the class of of the gun.
I can imagine the wealthy Landlord going out at night, followed by his bodyguard armed with one of these under his cloak.
No marks at all, which could be one more indication this is Portuguese ... as not having the recurrent Brit proof marks in the barrel.
Would someone care to comment ?

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[Roland_M]

Wow, a really impressive gun.
A caliber of 25mm causes quite nasty holes.

I have a little experience with black powder shooting and I am very sure, the sound of your gun must be overwhelming.

I have a modern replica cal. 54 black powder pistol and the sound of this caliber, which is only the half of yours, is much better than every modern pistol from cal. 22 to cal. 44.

I think the sound of your gun is between my caliber 54. and a cannon. If you shoot this gun in a Shooting range, you would make the people there very happy. An unforgettable moment.

Regards, Roland

[fernando]

Thank you so much Roland .
I am not a shooter, though; it was enough during military (war) service .
Also not a fan of replicas; will have to do by just imagining the noise of this thing, which i agree must be a hell of a bang .

Still ..
In any case, i like to have these things as much functional as possible ... mechanicaly wise.
A couple points in this one needing review; the frizzen spring needs some more tension and the hammer doesn't hold in both half and full cock positions (tumbler worn ?).

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[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by fernando

A couple points in this one needing review; the frizzen spring needs some more tension and the hammer doesn't hold in both half and full cock positions (tumbler worn ?).

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It is not just an impressive big caliber, it is also a beauty. The gun is not much decorated but I think it is high quality manufacturing.
I especially like the wooden shaft.
I would say, your gun is either from a ship or a carriage as a defense weapon. This is probably the reason for the conic muzzle, a ship or carriage is quite unstable during loading process.

In most cases the tumbler is worn, sometimes you can refurbish it. But more often you need a new tumbler for 100-150€.

Open the gun only in case you really want to shoot with it!


Despite i had around ten sessions with black powder guns on the shooting range, every single shot put a smile on my face, a massive and deep BANG and tons of smoke .

Roland

[Fernando K]

dear Fernando

The attribution of date seems correct, by the screw holding the barrel, and the rear plate fixation with nails.

A remarkable thing is the job of the octagonal barrel and the false mouth bronze, despite being a strong weapon in the decoration rigging and wood carving. Can not see, despite the pictures, if the false mouth is a macisa piece or barrel is only covered with a sheet of brass, well placed

In all Spanish literature, the faceted head is defined as "Madrid" or "Catalan", and of course the hook waist for a weapon of that weight, is for a "sling" or shoulder. The stick does not appear to be original, given the size of the beads.

For me, IMHO, I would have to think of a naval blunderbuss.

Affectionately. Fernando K

[Marcus den toom]

Couldn't withhold myself from commenting now instead of tomorrow, but this is a very attractive blunderbuss.
The brass muzzle section is, as far as i can see, only sheeted around an iron barrel mouth. When looking at the inside of the barrel mouth you can see the iron oxidation and also some small iron overlap on the brass muzzle section. Wouldn't make sence to create a all brass end for a gun, it would only cause a serious weakspot at one of the largest stress point of a barrel

The design is great looking and certainly fit for your staggering collection Nando my friend.
My position on the calibre is based on information i recieved after my own blunderbuss purchase. These guns where mainly shot with buckshot balls, so probably 10-11 mm lead balls, 10 pieces orso.
The swamped barrel mouth supports this, it wouldn't make sence with a solid lead/iron ball... blunderbussess where intended to scatter and hit as many targets at short distance. The iron looks to good for naval use i think, but who knows

What i absolutely like about this gun is the "belt" (?) hook that has survived till this day!! you don't see that to often. Take good care of this one, the market for blunderbussess has somewhat shrunk in the last few years, but such an quality item will be priceless (even more so than now) in a few years.

edit: my own blunderbuss with heavy pitted iron as comparison
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=ketland

[M ELEY]

Just a repeat of my PM to you, Fernando! Wow! A spectacular piece for your collection! I have no problem saying it could very well be (as others have already pointed out) be a naval piece. The lack of markings could point to 'private purchase' for privateers and/or merchant class ships. As I said, surprised there's no channel for a mounted swivel on this monster. Although blunderbuss were used for stage coaches, by armed guards, etc, I find it hard to imagine this beast for that purpose. As a 'rail gun' packed with partridge shot, it would have been a formidable weapon!

[fernando]

Thank you all for your comments, Gentlemen.
Fernando, the brass section on the barrel mouth is only a sheet applied to the steel and, surprisingly, not fully around, but only covering the visual part of it; definitely a decoration purpose.
I see your point that the hook would be for a sling (talabarte) due to this gun's weight, although its shape is precisely that of a waist belt hook (gancho de cinturon).
You are right in that the ramrod (baqueta) is not the correct one; it is going to be a problem to get a wooden one with a brass or bone tip, but i will give it a try.

Marcus, i agree with buck shot being basicaly the ammunition for these things; even some times all kinds of junk pieces, as per circumstances. When i mentioned 'caliber' was only to give an idea of the bore diameter.

Thank you Mark for the naval approach . It is possible, yes; but we can't discard the stage coach or armed guard possibilities, this one based on the waist/shoulder hook presence.

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[Shakethetrees]

Great piece! It would fit well into my collection!

If you look more closely at the last photo of the muzzle, you'll see that the iron barrel shows itself at the muzzle by a rough ring maybe one or two mm thick. The reason it appears that the brass bell only covers the exposed part of the barrel is that the entire flat of the muzzle has darkened and corroded with age. Only the exposed edge has had handling wear or polishing that exposes what appears to be a partial wrap.

This is a fairly unique bit of embellishment that I might have seen only once or twice before, although in not very familiar with Portuguese guns.

But, to restate it, the rusted bore and muzzle shows by reason of its different texture than the darkened brass bell.

Great piece!

[fernando]

How dumb i was; you are right .
I first thought that the 2 m/m 'porous layer' of the muzzle was another quality of steel, or 'burnt' by fire use; did not realize that it was the only part not covered by the all round brass wrapping, indeed a subtle job.
Looking now at it, one may discern that thin pelicule of metal, even in the more oxided lower area of the muzzle.

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[fernando]

So far so good.
After half hour trying to unscrew the lock, applying extreme force with a cross handle screw driver, a local fellow collector managed to pull it out. Another hour to treat the interior with penetrating oil and fortunately all parts functioning again. It was all about never been touched for long, long time; rust and dirt. Actualy all parts are in a fair good condition.
What apparently has no solution is the spring that has no tension against the frizzen's toe; we stuck in its interior some wood spacer to spread it a bit, in order to gain back some tension ... only to prevent the frizzen from tumbling loose.
Now the local (competent) stock maker is going to reconstruct the 'splinter' that is missing in the forend.
Will show pictures of both details when i pick ut up from the stock maker.
And, last but not least, i have strong hopes to get a propper ramrod from someone who cared to answer my appeal.

[Kmaddock]

Hi Fernando
If you have any metal working friends you could re anneal the spring
First heat red hot and let cool slowly in very warm sand over period of few hours, I warm the sand in the oven and then put spring into the tray of sand back into oven and let it all cool down slowly, strictly a job when wives are out of the house.
It will now be soft and you will be able to bend it to desired stretch
Then heat it red hot and quench it in cold water to harden it, it now will be v hard and brittle
Next you heat to a blue colour and quench in oil, whale oil is recommended but I use engine oil
You will find this works perfectly and there is a great satisfaction in getting these old guns back operational
Lovely gun by the way congratulations on a fine acquisition
Regards
Ken

[Shakethetrees]

Originally Posted by Kmaddock

Hi Fernando
If you have any metal working friends you could re anneal the spring
First heat red hot and let cool slowly in very warm sand over period of few hours, I warm the sand in the oven and then put spring into the tray of sand back into oven and let it all cool down slowly, strictly a job when wives are out of the house.
It will now be soft and you will be able to bend it to desired stretch
Then heat it red hot and quench it in cold water to harden it, it now will be v hard and brittle
Next you heat to a blue colour and quench in oil, whale oil is recommended but I use engine oil
You will find this works perfectly and there is a great satisfaction in getting these old guns back operational
Lovely gun by the way congratulations on a fine acquisition
Regards
Ken

Please check it over well inside and out with a magnifying glass before you do any heat treating or bending!

I did this a while back and found out the hard way when it suddenly broke, turning it into a pattern for a new hand made spring!

[Ken Maddock]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

Please check it over well inside and out with a magnifying glass before you do any heat treating or bending!

I did this a while back and found out the hard way when it suddenly broke, turning it into a pattern for a new hand made spring!

Hi
I assume you were looking for cracks, maybe a tread on home gun smithing tips and repair advice would be worth while.
I have a great method for removing stuck screws which I am going to employ tonight, I will photograph and show method and hopefully a positive result
regards
Ken

[Shakethetrees]

I look forward to your post, and I think a thread as you propose would be of benefit to this forum.

Is there some way to do it in both the European and Ethnographic categories, as it could benefit both.

Originally Posted by Ken Maddock

Hi
I assume you were looking for cracks, maybe a tread on home gun smithing tips and repair advice would be worth while.
I have a great method for removing stuck screws which I am going to employ tonight, I will photograph and show method and hopefully a positive result
regards
Ken

[fernando]

I will have to ponder on the situation when i pick the gun from the stock maker. Will check if the frizzen stop and cam are complete and the problem doesn't reside there, which i don't think anyway. The guy that managed to unscrew the lock plate also tried to unscrew the frizzen spring and gave it up after some effort assuming, by experience, that this type of screw might brake instead of turning off. The stock maker, whom also is a gun smith of modern shot guns, didn't see with good eyes the idea of dismounting and retempering the spring. I don't have other resources around and, remember, this would be a case of having the thing functioning only for my visual satisfaction ... not for shooting. Finding an original spring with the correct shape out there, is not an easy adventure. Another not risky alternative would be, instead of placing a wooden wedge between the spring leaves, glue a little rigid (steel) bar over the superior leave so that, the spring would still tension up, while with the previous solution the spring gets rather stuck.
I am sorry if these 'solutions' are not esthetic but ... i just can't stand to have the frizzen dancing loose up and down.

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[Marcus den toom]

Why not just simply remove the pancover/frizzen instead and welt some material on the "toe"of the frizzen instead? The spring is still perfect, only the pan has been worn at the contact point (sorry for the inaccurate technical terms).

Also if you are really hell bent on getting the screw of the frizzen spring off than you could try heating the lockplate at that area from the opposite side (so not at the spring side, otherwise the spring will loos tension, but at the inside).

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Fernando,
You could try these people http://www.blackleyandson.com If they don't have a part to fit they will make it for you. Really nice gun you have there
My Regards,
Norman.

[fernando]

Thank you Marcus.
What you suggest is also under consideration.
But as i said, i have to check the frizzen toe (cam) although is the spring that looks like being in a too low position, if i compare it with others.

Thank you Norman,
Very good link indeed ... and close from here; went straigh to my favorites index, for whenever i need it .

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Nando,

The spring does look fine considering the overall time period of this piece. After the first half of the 18th century the frizzen spring became less wide as far as i know.

attached is a tower lock plate with the frizzen spring and firm action on the frizzen.

[Fernando K]

Hello

Just let me know if this letter crowned above the royal crown is a V or W. Also, I wonder if this placed the "broad arrow"

Affectionately. Fernando K

[fernando]

Pondering the odds, we thought it was better (safer) to increase the frizzen toe than meddling with the spring.The result is not brilliant, but works. It was necessary to apply some heat to the screw, by the inside, to undo it. It's visible the toe is now a bit long, evidence that the spring is also a bit 'closed'.
The graft of the forend splinter is rather satisfactory, i would say.

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[Ken Maddock]

Hi
The wood graft is very good and a fantastic match
Was this all just staining wood to match or have you any secrets you would like to share

The toe in my opinion is a bit sharp and could be filed down a bit
Then I would take the obvious blue/black colour away with fine wire wool and then rust the metal back down
I do accelerated rusting by dipping the metal when hot into a nitric acid copper sulphate solution
I will be doing this process in a few weeks time and I will share a set of images
I find the problem in doing this work is always difficult as your eye is drawn to where the work was done and you can' t be objective
Best regards
Ken

[Shakethetrees]

For rusting iron, on old gunsmith convinced me to use common household bleach. Much easier to obtain than nitric and other chemicals.

Remove the frizzen and dab it on once a day or so and leave it in a damp area if possible. Don't be in a hurry! In a few days you will see results. But, don't stop now, continue dabbing bleach on. Try to get it in an irregular pattern, as if the rust is too even it will look unnatural.

If you stop treatment too soon the nascent rust will slough off, leaving clean metal. It has to stick!

Once you are convinced it is holding well, put the part in baking soda for a few days to begin neutralizing the rust.

Next, boil some water and drop the part in for fifteen or twenty minutes. This won't hurt any temper or other heat treating.

Remove it and dry it well, oil it, and remount. The active red rust will be converted to black iron oxide. And, any old patina will not be harmed by this.

I've done this and the results are foolproof, if you follow these directions closely.

[Fernando K]

hello

On the subject of the oxidation of iron (or steel) we must attend to what they say chemicals, not what they say people with the best intentions, but wrong

The oxide is a foreign body in the iron surface, t promotes further oxidation. No passive oxide,. but in the hidden, still working, slowly and without apuroo

Any attack with acid for it to be softer (boric) also attacks the metal.

When we look at a rusty piece, and we feel that this motionless, rust still working below What happens is that the process is slow, but not 100 or 200 years, everything was reduced to dust

Two metos that do not attack the metal, reduce rust and so prevent
subsequent oxidation are electrolysis and zinc-soda method. It is the method used in the sea salvage iron and recommended by Museologists

Affectionately. Fernando K

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ken Maddock

Hi
The wood graft is very good and a fantastic match
Was this all just staining wood to match or have you any secrets you would like to share ...The toe in my opinion is a bit sharp and could be filed down a bit...

No secrets at all; i don't have such capacity.
I picked it from the stock maker with a recomendation to apply some wax. I have done that but, the result was null. Then i used some walnut tint/wax i was once given by a fellow collector that does some restore works. The result was the colour it gained when i took the above pictures, before polishing. I waited for a couple hours and noticed that the tint texture was too dense and not inviting the brush procedure. And so it happened; instead of achieving some shine, it lost some of the tint, the tone becoming a little lighter. I then applied again some home wax, brushed it and gave it a little mineral oil.
As i said, the toe has to be that long in order to catch the spring tension; if i file it, it looses all the needed effect.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

For rusting iron, on old gunsmith convinced me to use common household bleach...

Thanks for the tip. Coincidently i have learnt the bleech trick a couple months ago, when trying to apply some oxidation on silver plaque. It did work, without any further action.
However and after such a fatigue at tuning up all blunderbuss details (lock unsticking, wood graft & finishing, new frizzen toe, some barrel bore cleaning, touchole disobstruction), i guess i will not go on the rusting process in the immediate future. Besides, the difference of tone in the treated material looks less evident at sight than in the pictures; the different parts through shadown in each other. Only the toe bluish sticks out; maybe i will apply a few drops of bleech in it.
The important thing now is the ram rod arrival .

[Ken Maddock]

I use my children's crayons for such tinting, available in a multitude of colours and cheap.
Hope the ramrod finishes the piece for you with as good a result that you have achieved so far
Regards
Ken

[fernando]

There we are; a genuine wooden ramrod and everything .


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[Shakethetrees]

Originally Posted by fernando

As i said, the toe has to be that long in order to catch the spring tension; if i file it, it looses all the needed effect.

Fernando, the addition to the frizzen toe is too sharp to provide a proper bearing surface for smooth action.

I would weld on a piece of metal way oversize, or even build up enough weld bead to make the oversize chunk.

File it to the shape of a traditional toe with a well rounded wide and deep surface area. Polish the contact surface and age. Do as much trial fitting and filing as you need to do to make it perfect.

You can do the household bleach trick I mentioned in an earlier post. Get it good and rusted. I just did this on another non-gun related bit of work I did for a piece of furniture in two days. It had a buildup of crusty, nasty rust. Awful looking, but just what one wants for this purpose. Only treat the affected area. Immerse it in boiling water for about twenty minutes or so, remove it and check. If there's still fresh rust, continue boiling until it is all gone and a nice, heavy black is seen. Neutralize it with baking soda and water if you want, but not necessary if you want a few spots of fresh rust over what will appear as some old black iron oxide. Lightly heat it to dry completely and immediately, while it's still hot, apply some wax. Let it cool several hours allowing the wax to harden and brush excess off.

A bit of extra work, but if it's done right it will go a long way to making the gun look right.

This blunderbuss is worth every bit of extra effort you need to take to make it perfect. It deserves no less!

If for some reason you can't (or won't!) go the extra mile, I know a collector/restorer whose collection could benefit by the addition of this gem!