Stamp on Indian Sword

NavdeepBal · 10th June 2018, 03:07 AM

I have had this sosun patta/kaati for some time now, and there is a very interesting stamp on the blade. It is clearly european, i think it might be genoan from the research Ive done but not entirely sure. If someone has any info on who the maker could be or anything of that sort plz let me know. Thanks!

Kubur · 10th June 2018, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NavdeepBal

I have had this sosun patta/kaati for some time now, and there is a very interesting stamp on the blade. It is clearly european, i think it might be genoan from the research Ive done but not entirely sure. If someone has any info on who the maker could be or anything of that sort plz let me know. Thanks!

Hi

If you turn upside down your photo
and look at this thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=fringia
You should get a lot of hapiness if not satisfaction.

Kubur

ariel · 10th June 2018, 03:32 PM

Kubur is correct: turn it upside down.
The only letter I can be reasonably certain about is the first one: F.
Ferrara? Fringia ? But the rest makes no sense to me.

Somehow I do not think the blade is an European import. Its general contour looks like Kirich or sossun pata,which would strongly suggest local production.
My guess it is Indian with spurious European mark. There were tons of them in India, Caucasus, N. Africa,- all the largest markets for trade blades that were highly monetarily valued in the areas of their destination. Local bladesmiths were not different from contemporary SE Asian producers of Versace and Dolce&Gabbana purses.

Good sword. I’d love to have it.

NavdeepBal · 10th June 2018, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Kubur is correct: turn it upside down.
The only letter I can be reasonably certain about is the first one: F.
Ferrara? Fringia ? But the rest makes no sense to me.

Somehow I do not think the blade is an European import. Its general contour looks like Kirich or sossun pata,which would strongly suggest local production.
My guess it is Indian with spurious European mark. There were tons of them in India, Caucasus, N. Africa,- all the largest markets for trade blades that were highly monetarily valued in the areas of their destination. Local bladesmiths were not different from contemporary SE Asian producers of Versace and Dolce&Gabbana purses.

Good sword. I’d love to have it.

Yea Im sorry about that. When i cropped the pic I guess it accidentally turned upside down. But the blade is pattern welded in a beautiful manner, and Ove seen a few european blades with the same design.

Jim McDougall · 14th June 2018, 05:53 PM

It is my impression that this is plausibly a European blade which probably came from Styrian context. The reason this marking has 'Genoan' character is that these centers were highly influenced by Genoan traders who brought their weapons into various entrepots.
However, for Indian makers, their 'interpretations' usually were augmented with much simpler marks, most commonly the 'sickle' (paired and dentated arcs) mark.

This one is far too detailed following the conventions of Styrian marking in my opinion. The history of the FRINGIA markings is intriguing, and carries back to the 16th century in Eastern Europe and the Holy Roman Empire. This blade has some character of the varied 'dusagge' type swords which were used in these regions from those early times, but probably is much later.

These markings with the Fringia and similar terms or words which seem most likely acronyms were widely copied in these configurations, but in European contexts.

The blade seems well worn as would indicate a great deal of profile alteration from extensive 'work'.

Jim McDougall · 14th June 2018, 07:18 PM

I forgot to add this plate of the FRINGIA, FRINDIA etc markings on European blades which reveal the wide variation and deviation which occurred in using them. The breakdown in lettering in this example has only the F legible however the placement of the dentated arc and triple dots etc, follow the European conventions suggesting it is quite probably European.

NavdeepBal · 14th June 2018, 07:52 PM

Oh Im sorry about that.

Victrix · 14th June 2018, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I forgot to add this plate of the FRINGIA, FRINDIA etc markings on European blades which reveal the wide variation and deviation which occurred in using them. The breakdown in lettering in this example has only the F legible however the placement of the dentated arc and triple dots etc, follow the European conventions suggesting it is quite probably European.

It’s good to see you back here in the Forum, Jim!

NavdeepBal · 14th June 2018, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I forgot to add this plate of the FRINGIA, FRINDIA etc markings on European blades which reveal the wide variation and deviation which occurred in using them. The breakdown in lettering in this example has only the F legible however the placement of the dentated arc and triple dots etc, follow the European conventions suggesting it is quite probably European.

It seems lik to me some letters have partially disappeared because of polishing. Excessive polishing happens a lot in India.

fernando · 15th June 2018, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

... The only letter I can be reasonably certain about is the first one: F.
Ferrara? Fringia ? But the rest makes no sense to me.
My guess it is Indian with spurious European mark...

If i were to consider one symbol as an F, i would then take another one also as an F. In fact, it looks (to me) as if the (pseudo?) inscription is abundant in pairs ... and hardly a word

.

.

Jim McDougall · 15th June 2018, 04:43 PM

Thank you Victrix

As noted, heavy polishing does take is toll over many years, and a high polish was always favored on blades as well as dramatic sharpness of course.
The plate I posted was to illustrate some of the many variations of assemblages of marks and letters used in these groupings.

While in certain cases, the name GENOA can be seen, however most of the other letter groups seem almost certainly acrostics, whose meanings have been widely debated over many years.

10th June 2018, 03:07 AM	#1
NavdeepBal Member Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 34	Stamp on Indian Sword I have had this sosun patta/kaati for some time now, and there is a very interesting stamp on the blade. It is clearly european, i think it might be genoan from the research Ive done but not entirely sure. If someone has any info on who the maker could be or anything of that sort plz let me know. Thanks! Attached Images

14th June 2018, 07:18 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	I forgot to add this plate of the FRINGIA, FRINDIA etc markings on European blades which reveal the wide variation and deviation which occurred in using them. The breakdown in lettering in this example has only the F legible however the placement of the dentated arc and triple dots etc, follow the European conventions suggesting it is quite probably European. Attached Images

10th June 2018, 03:32 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kubur is correct: turn it upside down. The only letter I can be reasonably certain about is the first one: F. Ferrara? Fringia ? But the rest makes no sense to me. Somehow I do not think the blade is an European import. Its general contour looks like Kirich or sossun pata,which would strongly suggest local production. My guess it is Indian with spurious European mark. There were tons of them in India, Caucasus, N. Africa,- all the largest markets for trade blades that were highly monetarily valued in the areas of their destination. Local bladesmiths were not different from contemporary SE Asian producers of Versace and Dolce&Gabbana purses. Good sword. I’d love to have it.

14th June 2018, 05:53 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	It is my impression that this is plausibly a European blade which probably came from Styrian context. The reason this marking has 'Genoan' character is that these centers were highly influenced by Genoan traders who brought their weapons into various entrepots. However, for Indian makers, their 'interpretations' usually were augmented with much simpler marks, most commonly the 'sickle' (paired and dentated arcs) mark. This one is far too detailed following the conventions of Styrian marking in my opinion. The history of the FRINGIA markings is intriguing, and carries back to the 16th century in Eastern Europe and the Holy Roman Empire. This blade has some character of the varied 'dusagge' type swords which were used in these regions from those early times, but probably is much later. These markings with the Fringia and similar terms or words which seem most likely acronyms were widely copied in these configurations, but in European contexts. The blade seems well worn as would indicate a great deal of profile alteration from extensive 'work'.

14th June 2018, 07:52 PM	#7
NavdeepBal Member Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 34	Oh Im sorry about that.

15th June 2018, 04:43 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Thank you Victrix As noted, heavy polishing does take is toll over many years, and a high polish was always favored on blades as well as dramatic sharpness of course. The plate I posted was to illustrate some of the many variations of assemblages of marks and letters used in these groupings. While in certain cases, the name GENOA can be seen, however most of the other letter groups seem almost certainly acrostics, whose meanings have been widely debated over many years.