Katzbalger for comments

fernando · 18th November 2011, 05:00 PM

I sincerely hope the knowledge members will give me a help here, in order to correctly situate this sword ... as will also welcome any member to favor me with their coments.
I knew the wooden grip was a (modest) replacement when i acquired this sword, but only now i can check that, who did the work, was wise enough not to dismount the pommel, having applied a grip made of two halves.
My top question goes for the guard; with its 17 cms width, looks to me rather large (unproportional) for what i expected Katzbalger guards would be. Could it be that its owner/user ordered a large guard to better protect his hand?
The seller said that the previous owner called this sword a “composite”; would that be related with the guard provenance?
Amazingly only one of the quillons is twisted; is this a typical procedure? i can’t imagine the smith “forgetting” to twist the other quillon.
The pommel looks untouched … at least in a recent past.
The blade looks strong and sound, with its 5 mm thickness, 40 mm width and 87 cms length.
Concerning the age, i was told this is a 16th century Landsknecht sword; am i far away from reality?
Any help will be greatly welcome.

.

Matchlock · 18th November 2011, 06:10 PM

Hi ''Nando,

Telling from your good images, I would assume that the blade is the earliest part of the sword. It seems just right in its appearance and proportions, including the short lateral fullers at the base and the central fullers all the way down to the tip, for ca. 1515-20. The patina too is great.

The ovoid pommel with its characteristic bulged shape to me looks like the 1530's, the latest period of Katzbalgers. Though its patina seems consistent with that of the quillons, the latter leave the impression that they might be a later (19th c.?) replacement. The roping, in my opinion, is not explicit enough for a typical period piece; the fact that the roped decoration is only present on one of the quillons might be explained by the surmise that the smith felt it was sufficient just to rope the front part. The general surface of the quillons seem a bit too smooth and 'machine-made' though, at least in my eyes.

Forget about the grip, I would just take off the central bulged area which would add greatly to its impression.

Anyway, I think it is a nice piece and original in at least the main parts which are the blade and pommel. Many of these swords saw secondary use for hundreds of years, and repairs as well as replacements were quite common. Especially the blade looks just as it should, like it saw extensive use.

Congratulations, and best,
Michl

Jim McDougall · 18th November 2011, 08:20 PM

Hi Fernando,
Beautiful example! and the maestro himself, Michael, has well described of course the details of its character. There are few with the knowledge on these that reach the depth of what has been shared by him in his classic thread on these. I think the fullering on this blade is intriguing in that it runs the entire lenth of the blade to the point. I am wondering more on the purpose or convention with this, as of course most fullers terminate far before the point.
Also the configuration of the blade and its fullers overall, the short lateral fullers at the forte, and the triple central fullers correspond well with the Solingen blades in the 17th century which became commonly seen on Scottish basket hilts, along typically with the ANDREA FERARA marking. The triple fullers though of course terminated long before the tip.

In many swords and daggers it seems that decoration and detail tend to apply more to the obverse or outward side of the weapon, as the part of course more visible. Is it possible that the writhen character of the guard may have been done in this manner? It may be a moot point, but worthy of note.

All best regards,
Jim

fernando · 18th November 2011, 10:36 PM

Hi Michl,
Thank you ever so much for the comprehensive input, ... which i shall digest part by part

fernando · 18th November 2011, 10:44 PM

Thasnk you so much for your impressions Jim,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I think the fullering on this blade is intriguing in that it runs the entire lenth of the blade to the point. I am wondering more on the purpose or convention with this, as of course most fullers terminate far before the point...

I have previously checked this point with someone you know

, as also later i observed pictures of some examples out there.
This fullering custom is typical in these swords.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... In many swords and daggers it seems that decoration and detail tend to apply more to the obverse or outward side of the weapon, as the part of course more visible...

As also proposed by Michl ... so, two in one

.

Matchlock · 19th November 2011, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Thasnk you so much for your impressions Jim,

I have previously checked this point with someone you know

As also proposed by Michl ... so, two in one

.

Hi Jim & 'Nando,

Just a little help from a friend

!

Of course 'Nando only had some rather poor images to decide by up to now.
I'm all the more glad we didn't go wrong! That would've been the worst possible outcome imaginable when you got to advise a friend just on the basis of a few meciodre images. I mean: after all, you really got to put all of your personal authority at stake in a comprehensive final statement - usually just based on a few images both as poor as questionable ... so the (though relative) responsibillty is all the commentator's, you know ?

Everybody wishing to get more stylistic information on Katzbalgers, please see my updated thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...sknecht+swords

Best,
Michl

Matchlock · 19th November 2011, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Fernando,
Beautiful example! and the maestro himself, Michael, has well described of course the details of its character. There are few with the knowledge on these that reach the depth of what has been shared by him in his classic thread on these.
All best regards,
Jim

Hi Jim,

Once more your praise made me blush, Sir!

I have to admit though to have shared all my knowledge on early Landsknecht swords in this thread, and I will continue updating it the best I can.

A whole lot more than I could ever tell about 16th c. edged weapons I have often tried to share on 14th-17th c. firearms and accouterments though - sadly enough that topic didn't seem to be of similar interest among the community ...

Actually, only my brilliant friends Alexander (Spiridonov), 'Nando, Richard and Rick (and of course YOU, give or take one or two) seem to have cared much so far.

Best from a carryin'-on
Michael

M ELEY · 19th November 2011, 12:30 PM

Actually, I think quite a few follow the topics, but might not have more to add than the experts-

I'm enjoying the enlightenment, I assure you.

Matchlock · 19th November 2011, 09:50 PM

Thanks, Mark,

Your inputs are always appreciated!

Best,
Michael

Norman McCormick · 20th November 2011, 11:55 PM

I definitely agree with Mark, always informative and interesting reading but I just don't have the knowledge to add to most of the discussions. Don't stop!!!!

My Regards,
Norman.

Matchlock · 21st November 2011, 12:58 AM

Hi Norman,

Your kind attention is feedback enough and makes my work worth while!

I cannot expect others to have that extremely specialized knowledge. I'm sure most of our members know a whole lot on topics I've never heard about ..

Best,
Michael

Atlantia · 21st November 2011, 09:14 AM

Hey Nando!

What a nice old warrior to add to your collection. Well done! A lovely sword.

fernando · 21st November 2011, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hey Nando!

What a nice old warrior to add to your collection. Well done! A lovely sword.

Oh Gene !

.

Atlantia · 21st November 2011, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Oh Gene !

.

LOL, we DO need a group picture of this fine warrior with his new comrades though!

fernando · 21st November 2011, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

LOL, we DO need a group picture of this fine warrior with his new comrades though!

Just you wait

.

18th November 2011, 05:00 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Katzbalger for comments I sincerely hope the knowledge members will give me a help here, in order to correctly situate this sword ... as will also welcome any member to favor me with their coments. I knew the wooden grip was a (modest) replacement when i acquired this sword, but only now i can check that, who did the work, was wise enough not to dismount the pommel, having applied a grip made of two halves. My top question goes for the guard; with its 17 cms width, looks to me rather large (unproportional) for what i expected Katzbalger guards would be. Could it be that its owner/user ordered a large guard to better protect his hand? The seller said that the previous owner called this sword a “composite”; would that be related with the guard provenance? Amazingly only one of the quillons is twisted; is this a typical procedure? i can’t imagine the smith “forgetting” to twist the other quillon. The pommel looks untouched … at least in a recent past. The blade looks strong and sound, with its 5 mm thickness, 40 mm width and 87 cms length. Concerning the age, i was told this is a 16th century Landsknecht sword; am i far away from reality? Any help will be greatly welcome. . Attached Images

18th November 2011, 06:10 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi ''Nando, Telling from your good images, I would assume that the blade is the earliest part of the sword. It seems just right in its appearance and proportions, including the short lateral fullers at the base and the central fullers all the way down to the tip, for ca. 1515-20. The patina too is great. The ovoid pommel with its characteristic bulged shape to me looks like the 1530's, the latest period of Katzbalgers. Though its patina seems consistent with that of the quillons, the latter leave the impression that they might be a later (19th c.?) replacement. The roping, in my opinion, is not explicit enough for a typical period piece; the fact that the roped decoration is only present on one of the quillons might be explained by the surmise that the smith felt it was sufficient just to rope the front part. The general surface of the quillons seem a bit too smooth and 'machine-made' though, at least in my eyes. Forget about the grip, I would just take off the central bulged area which would add greatly to its impression. Anyway, I think it is a nice piece and original in at least the main parts which are the blade and pommel. Many of these swords saw secondary use for hundreds of years, and repairs as well as replacements were quite common. Especially the blade looks just as it should, like it saw extensive use. Congratulations, and best, Michl Last edited by Matchlock; 19th November 2011 at 05:44 AM.

20th November 2011, 11:55 PM	#10
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	I definitely agree with Mark, always informative and interesting reading but I just don't have the knowledge to add to most of the discussions. Don't stop!!!! My Regards, Norman. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 21st November 2011 at 12:09 AM.

18th November 2011, 08:20 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Fernando, Beautiful example! and the maestro himself, Michael, has well described of course the details of its character. There are few with the knowledge on these that reach the depth of what has been shared by him in his classic thread on these. I think the fullering on this blade is intriguing in that it runs the entire lenth of the blade to the point. I am wondering more on the purpose or convention with this, as of course most fullers terminate far before the point. Also the configuration of the blade and its fullers overall, the short lateral fullers at the forte, and the triple central fullers correspond well with the Solingen blades in the 17th century which became commonly seen on Scottish basket hilts, along typically with the ANDREA FERARA marking. The triple fullers though of course terminated long before the tip. In many swords and daggers it seems that decoration and detail tend to apply more to the obverse or outward side of the weapon, as the part of course more visible. Is it possible that the writhen character of the guard may have been done in this manner? It may be a moot point, but worthy of note. All best regards, Jim

18th November 2011, 10:36 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Michl, Thank you ever so much for the comprehensive input, ... which i shall digest part by part

19th November 2011, 12:30 PM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Actually, I think quite a few follow the topics, but might not have more to add than the experts- I'm enjoying the enlightenment, I assure you.

19th November 2011, 09:50 PM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thanks, Mark, Your inputs are always appreciated! Best, Michael

21st November 2011, 12:58 AM	#11
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Norman, Your kind attention is feedback enough and makes my work worth while! I cannot expect others to have that extremely specialized knowledge. I'm sure most of our members know a whole lot on topics I've never heard about .. Best, Michael

21st November 2011, 09:14 AM	#12
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hey Nando! What a nice old warrior to add to your collection. Well done! A lovely sword.