STINGRAY BLADE

VANDOO · 7th May 2013, 11:12 PM

THERE ARE STORIES OF THE STINGRAY KERIS THEY USUALLY GO SOMETHING LIKE THIS. IN THE OLD DAYS STINGRAY BARBS WERE USED FOR ARROW, SPEAR AND DAGGERS WITH THE POISON STILL ON THEM. WHEN METAL BECAME AVAILABLE IT WAS NOT IN LARGE SUPPLY AND USUALLY CAME IN SMALL PIECES. VARIOUS THINGS WERE MADE FROM NAILS, SPIKES AND SUCH LIKELY ARROW POINTS, SPEAR POINTS AND PERHAPS SMALL DAGGERS OR KNIVES. THE LEGEND OR STORY OF THE STINGRAY KERIS WOULD BEGIN HERE IF THEY EVER DID ACTUALLY EXHIST. THEY WERE SUPOSIDLY SHAPED LIKE THE STINGRAY BARB AND OFTEN POISONED WITH SOME SORT OF VENOM AS WAS TRADITIONAL WITH THE ORIGINAL STINGRAY WEAPON.
AS AN ASIDE CAPTIAN COOK WAS KILLED TRYING TO RECOVER A SHIPS BOAT THE HAWAIIANS HAD TAKEN TO GET THE NAILS AND METAL FROM.
THE CREW HAD BEEN TRADEING ANY SMALL NAILS OR BITS FOR FAVORS FROM THE NATIVES. WHEN THE CAPTIAN FORBADE THE CREW TO TAKE ANY MORE NAILS OR SPIKES FROM THE SHIP THE SUPPLY ENDED LEADING TO THE TROUBLE.
PICTURES OF THE STINGRAY KERIS IT MAY BE A OLD VERY SMALL SPEAR BLADE AND PERHAPS BE CONSIDERED A TOMBAK BUT IS THE CLOSEST I HAVE SEEN. SO ANY COMMENTS OR FURTHER EXAMPLES OR STORIES ARE WELCOME. PICTURES OF TWO SMALL STINGRAY BARBS AND A PENNY FOR SIZE. THE LARGEST STINGRAY BARB I HAVE IS 14 INCHES LONG BUT NOT PICTURED.

VANDOO · 23rd May 2013, 09:14 PM

I GUESS THIS POST SHOULD BE MOVED TO THE ETHNOGRAPHIC FORUM AS IT DOSEN'T FULFILL THE PROPER FORM OF A KERIS. THE BLADE IS PARMOR THE HANDLE IS A PROPER KERIS HANDLE AND HAS QUITE A BIT OF AGE AS THIS SORT OF WOOD TAKES ON PATINA VERY SLOWLY SO I DON'T THINK THIS IS JUST SOMETHING PUT TOGETHER FOR TOURISTS. THE BLADE IS 7 INCHES AND ITS 9.5 INCHES LONG TOTAL, THE BLADE IS THIN AND NOT MUCH THICKER IN THE CENTER AS IN MOST SPEAR BLADES.
I WOULD APPRECIATE IF THE POST CAN BE MOVED BY A MODERATOR THANKS

David · 23rd May 2013, 09:25 PM

Well, i think you are right Barry and i also don't give much validity to the stingray origin of the keris blade, though perhaps it influenced the creation of other blade forms. So i will move this for you to see if you can find any interest in Ethno...

VANDOO · 23rd May 2013, 09:27 PM

I GUESS THIS POST SHOULD BE MOVED TO THE ETHNOGRAPHIC FORUM AS IT DOSEN'T FULFILL THE PROPER FORM OF A KERIS. THE BLADE IS PARMOR THE HANDLE IS A PROPER KERIS HANDLE CARVED SMALL FOR THE BLADE. THE WOOD IS SPLIT FROM RUST AND HAS QUITE A BIT OF AGE AS THIS SORT OF WOOD TAKES ON PATINA VERY SLOWLY SO I DON'T THINK THIS IS JUST SOMETHING PUT TOGETHER FOR TOURISTS. THE BLADE IS 7 INCHES AND ITS 9.5 INCHES LONG TOTAL, THE BLADE IS THIN AND NOT MUCH THICKER IN THE CENTER AS IN MOST SPEAR BLADES. HAS ANYONE ELSE EVER HEARD OF THIS SO CALLED STINGRAY KERIS OR SEEN ONE ?
I WOULD APPRECIATE IF THE POST CAN BE MOVED BY A MODERATOR THANKS OOOPS SOMEHOW DID A DOUBLE POST THANKS DAVID

manteris1 · 23rd May 2013, 11:01 PM

barry, i like it.......................jimmy

A. G. Maisey · 23rd May 2013, 11:34 PM

I think the stringray legend might have been started by Gardner, at least he mentions it, but it might also have been Wooley . Don't think it was Hill. If you browse Gardner you'll find mention, I'm sure.

As for the blade, its a tombak blade mounted to a keris hilt, Balinese. These sort of cross mountings are not unusual, especially with tombak. If somebody needs an affordable weapon, its an easy way to do it. Some of these irregular combinations come up as very nice weapons.

EDIT

Yes, Gardner, just checked it.

VANDOO · 24th May 2013, 06:48 AM

ITS GOOD TO KNOW WHERE THE LEGEND WAS FIRST WRITTEN DOWN THE WRITER MOST LIKELY HEARD IT FROM SOMEONE SO IT MAY HAVE EVOLVED IN THE CULTURE ITSELF RATHER THAN BEEN MADE UP BY AN OUTSIDER.
I AGREE WITH ALAN THIS WOULD MOST LIKELY BE CONSIDERED A TOMBOK THOUGH THE KERIS STYLE HANDLE IS NOT TYPICAL FOR MOST TOMBOK I HAVE SEEN.
THERE IS PROBABLY A LARGE VARIETY OF THESE ODD KNIVES MADE FROM BITS OF OLD PARMOR OR BROKEN KERIS AND SPEAR BLADES. THESE WERE NO DOUBT POPULAR WITH PEOPLE WHO COULD NOT AFFORD TO HAVE A MORE EXPENSIVE KERIS MADE BY A PANDAY. THEY WOULD NOT BE COLLECTED BY THOSE INTERESTED IN KERIS AS THEY WILL NOT HAVE AS HIGH A STATIS IN THE SOCIETY. IF THEY WERE IN COMMON USE FOR WORK THE OLDER ONES WOULD LIKELY BE WORN OUT AND SCRAPPED WHEN STEEL WORK KNIVES BECAME INEXPENSIVE AND EASILY OBTAINED. SOME MAY HAVE BEEN KEPT AS A SORT OF TAILSMAN OR FAMILY HEIRLOOM.
WHEN I FIRST READ ABOUT THE KERIS I FOUND THE MANY LEGENDS ABOUT THEM VERY INTERESTING. KERIS WERE SAID TO BE MADE OF METEOR IRON AND POISONED AND THERE WERE MANY MAGICAL POWERS ASSOCIATED WITH THEM. SINCE THEN I HAVE LEARNED THESE THINGS WERE NOT EXACTLY TRUE. THERE WERE KERIS MADE USING A METEOR BUT WERE ONLY A FEW IN NUMBER. THE ODD TEXTURE OF THE BLADES RESULTING FROM THE TECKNIQUE USED TO MAKE THEM. THE POSION MAY HAVE BEEN FROM THE DEEP RAGGED NATURE OF THE WOUNDS AND INFECTION IN THE TROPICS. THE INFORMATION THAT ARSENIC WAS USED TO STAIN BLADES AND THE USE OF POSIONS ON SOME WEAPONS IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD WOULD ADD TO THE BELIEF. NO DOUBT THERE ARE A LOT OF SMALL COMMON KNIVES AROUND THAT PART OF THE WORLD, BUT THERE IS LITTLE INTEREST IN COLLECTING OR CATALOGING THEM.
DON'T TAKE THIS AS REFRENCE BUT AS INTERESTING INFORMATION WITH A BIT OF CONJECTURE.

A. G. Maisey · 24th May 2013, 09:21 AM

The sting-ray idea was actually Gardner's idea of origin of the keris. There were a lot of ideas about origin around at one time, and this one seems to be the one that Gardner favoured. He tells of archaeological finds of sting ray barbs in the old Dutch East Indies, in places far removed from the sea and postulates that these finds are evidence that the keris began as a ray barb.

The hilt on your tombak, Barry, is a very common form of Balinese hilt, and it is a very common occurrence to find old tombak blades, broken and re-cycled pedang and keris blades fitted with all sorts of hilts and handles to allow them to be either used or sold. If you trawl the markets for long enough, and often enough in Jawa and Bali you'll find every variation and combination imaginable. There nothing at all unusual in the combination that we see here.

The thing is that mostly collectors will focus on recognised and known forms, especially forms that they have seen illustrated, when they see something that hasn't been illustrated somewhere, or that they don't recognise, they get the idea that it is "fake", or "tourist". Most times this opinion is wrong. The variation in genuine, original weaponry in Indonesia is infinite, and the actual keris, pedangs and tombaks that can be seen on the ground, for sale and in indigenous collections far out distances anything that could be imagined.

I learnt a long time ago that if you cannot reference an item to a known source, collectors will rarely buy it, and I guess most people who buy to resell have learnt the same lesson, thus all these little oddities stay in their places of origin and very rarely get seen in the wider world.

Actually, in olden times in Jawa some weapons were poisoned and various recipes exist for the way in which to apply poison to a weapon.

Probably the fact that arsenic is used to darken a blade led to some confusion about poisoned blades, but it is true that actual poison was used on blades in the past.

7th May 2013, 11:12 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	STINGRAY KERIS THERE ARE STORIES OF THE STINGRAY KERIS THEY USUALLY GO SOMETHING LIKE THIS. IN THE OLD DAYS STINGRAY BARBS WERE USED FOR ARROW, SPEAR AND DAGGERS WITH THE POISON STILL ON THEM. WHEN METAL BECAME AVAILABLE IT WAS NOT IN LARGE SUPPLY AND USUALLY CAME IN SMALL PIECES. VARIOUS THINGS WERE MADE FROM NAILS, SPIKES AND SUCH LIKELY ARROW POINTS, SPEAR POINTS AND PERHAPS SMALL DAGGERS OR KNIVES. THE LEGEND OR STORY OF THE STINGRAY KERIS WOULD BEGIN HERE IF THEY EVER DID ACTUALLY EXHIST. THEY WERE SUPOSIDLY SHAPED LIKE THE STINGRAY BARB AND OFTEN POISONED WITH SOME SORT OF VENOM AS WAS TRADITIONAL WITH THE ORIGINAL STINGRAY WEAPON. AS AN ASIDE CAPTIAN COOK WAS KILLED TRYING TO RECOVER A SHIPS BOAT THE HAWAIIANS HAD TAKEN TO GET THE NAILS AND METAL FROM. THE CREW HAD BEEN TRADEING ANY SMALL NAILS OR BITS FOR FAVORS FROM THE NATIVES. WHEN THE CAPTIAN FORBADE THE CREW TO TAKE ANY MORE NAILS OR SPIKES FROM THE SHIP THE SUPPLY ENDED LEADING TO THE TROUBLE. PICTURES OF THE STINGRAY KERIS IT MAY BE A OLD VERY SMALL SPEAR BLADE AND PERHAPS BE CONSIDERED A TOMBAK BUT IS THE CLOSEST I HAVE SEEN. SO ANY COMMENTS OR FURTHER EXAMPLES OR STORIES ARE WELCOME. PICTURES OF TWO SMALL STINGRAY BARBS AND A PENNY FOR SIZE. THE LARGEST STINGRAY BARB I HAVE IS 14 INCHES LONG BUT NOT PICTURED. Attached Images

23rd May 2013, 11:34 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,896	I think the stringray legend might have been started by Gardner, at least he mentions it, but it might also have been Wooley . Don't think it was Hill. If you browse Gardner you'll find mention, I'm sure. As for the blade, its a tombak blade mounted to a keris hilt, Balinese. These sort of cross mountings are not unusual, especially with tombak. If somebody needs an affordable weapon, its an easy way to do it. Some of these irregular combinations come up as very nice weapons. EDIT Yes, Gardner, just checked it. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 24th May 2013 at 12:00 AM. Reason: confirm

23rd May 2013, 09:14 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I GUESS THIS POST SHOULD BE MOVED TO THE ETHNOGRAPHIC FORUM AS IT DOSEN'T FULFILL THE PROPER FORM OF A KERIS. THE BLADE IS PARMOR THE HANDLE IS A PROPER KERIS HANDLE AND HAS QUITE A BIT OF AGE AS THIS SORT OF WOOD TAKES ON PATINA VERY SLOWLY SO I DON'T THINK THIS IS JUST SOMETHING PUT TOGETHER FOR TOURISTS. THE BLADE IS 7 INCHES AND ITS 9.5 INCHES LONG TOTAL, THE BLADE IS THIN AND NOT MUCH THICKER IN THE CENTER AS IN MOST SPEAR BLADES. I WOULD APPRECIATE IF THE POST CAN BE MOVED BY A MODERATOR THANKS

23rd May 2013, 09:25 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Well, i think you are right Barry and i also don't give much validity to the stingray origin of the keris blade, though perhaps it influenced the creation of other blade forms. So i will move this for you to see if you can find any interest in Ethno...

23rd May 2013, 09:27 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I GUESS THIS POST SHOULD BE MOVED TO THE ETHNOGRAPHIC FORUM AS IT DOSEN'T FULFILL THE PROPER FORM OF A KERIS. THE BLADE IS PARMOR THE HANDLE IS A PROPER KERIS HANDLE CARVED SMALL FOR THE BLADE. THE WOOD IS SPLIT FROM RUST AND HAS QUITE A BIT OF AGE AS THIS SORT OF WOOD TAKES ON PATINA VERY SLOWLY SO I DON'T THINK THIS IS JUST SOMETHING PUT TOGETHER FOR TOURISTS. THE BLADE IS 7 INCHES AND ITS 9.5 INCHES LONG TOTAL, THE BLADE IS THIN AND NOT MUCH THICKER IN THE CENTER AS IN MOST SPEAR BLADES. HAS ANYONE ELSE EVER HEARD OF THIS SO CALLED STINGRAY KERIS OR SEEN ONE ? I WOULD APPRECIATE IF THE POST CAN BE MOVED BY A MODERATOR THANKS OOOPS SOMEHOW DID A DOUBLE POST THANKS DAVID

23rd May 2013, 11:01 PM	#5
manteris1 Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 114	barry, i like it.......................jimmy

24th May 2013, 06:48 AM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	ITS GOOD TO KNOW WHERE THE LEGEND WAS FIRST WRITTEN DOWN THE WRITER MOST LIKELY HEARD IT FROM SOMEONE SO IT MAY HAVE EVOLVED IN THE CULTURE ITSELF RATHER THAN BEEN MADE UP BY AN OUTSIDER. I AGREE WITH ALAN THIS WOULD MOST LIKELY BE CONSIDERED A TOMBOK THOUGH THE KERIS STYLE HANDLE IS NOT TYPICAL FOR MOST TOMBOK I HAVE SEEN. THERE IS PROBABLY A LARGE VARIETY OF THESE ODD KNIVES MADE FROM BITS OF OLD PARMOR OR BROKEN KERIS AND SPEAR BLADES. THESE WERE NO DOUBT POPULAR WITH PEOPLE WHO COULD NOT AFFORD TO HAVE A MORE EXPENSIVE KERIS MADE BY A PANDAY. THEY WOULD NOT BE COLLECTED BY THOSE INTERESTED IN KERIS AS THEY WILL NOT HAVE AS HIGH A STATIS IN THE SOCIETY. IF THEY WERE IN COMMON USE FOR WORK THE OLDER ONES WOULD LIKELY BE WORN OUT AND SCRAPPED WHEN STEEL WORK KNIVES BECAME INEXPENSIVE AND EASILY OBTAINED. SOME MAY HAVE BEEN KEPT AS A SORT OF TAILSMAN OR FAMILY HEIRLOOM. WHEN I FIRST READ ABOUT THE KERIS I FOUND THE MANY LEGENDS ABOUT THEM VERY INTERESTING. KERIS WERE SAID TO BE MADE OF METEOR IRON AND POISONED AND THERE WERE MANY MAGICAL POWERS ASSOCIATED WITH THEM. SINCE THEN I HAVE LEARNED THESE THINGS WERE NOT EXACTLY TRUE. THERE WERE KERIS MADE USING A METEOR BUT WERE ONLY A FEW IN NUMBER. THE ODD TEXTURE OF THE BLADES RESULTING FROM THE TECKNIQUE USED TO MAKE THEM. THE POSION MAY HAVE BEEN FROM THE DEEP RAGGED NATURE OF THE WOUNDS AND INFECTION IN THE TROPICS. THE INFORMATION THAT ARSENIC WAS USED TO STAIN BLADES AND THE USE OF POSIONS ON SOME WEAPONS IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD WOULD ADD TO THE BELIEF. NO DOUBT THERE ARE A LOT OF SMALL COMMON KNIVES AROUND THAT PART OF THE WORLD, BUT THERE IS LITTLE INTEREST IN COLLECTING OR CATALOGING THEM. DON'T TAKE THIS AS REFRENCE BUT AS INTERESTING INFORMATION WITH A BIT OF CONJECTURE.

24th May 2013, 09:21 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,896	The sting-ray idea was actually Gardner's idea of origin of the keris. There were a lot of ideas about origin around at one time, and this one seems to be the one that Gardner favoured. He tells of archaeological finds of sting ray barbs in the old Dutch East Indies, in places far removed from the sea and postulates that these finds are evidence that the keris began as a ray barb. The hilt on your tombak, Barry, is a very common form of Balinese hilt, and it is a very common occurrence to find old tombak blades, broken and re-cycled pedang and keris blades fitted with all sorts of hilts and handles to allow them to be either used or sold. If you trawl the markets for long enough, and often enough in Jawa and Bali you'll find every variation and combination imaginable. There nothing at all unusual in the combination that we see here. The thing is that mostly collectors will focus on recognised and known forms, especially forms that they have seen illustrated, when they see something that hasn't been illustrated somewhere, or that they don't recognise, they get the idea that it is "fake", or "tourist". Most times this opinion is wrong. The variation in genuine, original weaponry in Indonesia is infinite, and the actual keris, pedangs and tombaks that can be seen on the ground, for sale and in indigenous collections far out distances anything that could be imagined. I learnt a long time ago that if you cannot reference an item to a known source, collectors will rarely buy it, and I guess most people who buy to resell have learnt the same lesson, thus all these little oddities stay in their places of origin and very rarely get seen in the wider world. Actually, in olden times in Jawa some weapons were poisoned and various recipes exist for the way in which to apply poison to a weapon. Probably the fact that arsenic is used to darken a blade led to some confusion about poisoned blades, but it is true that actual poison was used on blades in the past.