Any info on this kind of Sumatran knife?

[KuKulzA28]

I was browsing through old threads and found this old knife attributed to Sumatra island.
I tried to find information on it, but it doesn't seem like a typical knife of Sumatra...



Does anyone have more information on it? What ethnic/cultural groups used it? What part of Sumatra is it from? What is it called? Are there specific styles of Silat that use it? Etc.etc.

Thanks!

[kai]

Rick, could you please add some more pics of your dagger and comment on the materials (including patina inside scabbard)?

Pinning this down to a specific ethnic group may be a bit too much to ask for but it does look like a neat blade with fittings characteristic for Sumatra, indeed. The fullered blade is almost certainly Sumatran: Not one of the common styles but similar ones do pop up once in a while. Without wanting to indulge into the name game, I believe that this can well be referred to as a piso, i. e. a "knife" (most likely an EDC piece).

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

Hello Kai,
The hilt, scabbard throat and toe are from dark horn .
The inside of the scabbard is the same color as the exterior as far as I can see .

Pictures to follow soon when the sky lightens a bit .

IIRC either TVV or VVV had a name to hang on it; that may possibly be found in the original thread .

I have not seen another example of this form .

Length in scabbard is 12.5 inches
Blade is 7.5 inches .

[KuKulzA28]

Hmm... this is very interesting. This knife must have a very small handle right? I mean if the blade is 7.5", then the grip of the handle is probably only 1.5" to 2" right? Or is there a different grip technique?

Could the origin be discovered with the sheath style and the pommel style? I hesitate to use that since there's a lot of common hilt styles in Indonesia, for example my favorites - the makara pommel-ed pedangs and klewangs that are attributed to east Sumtra and Lombok... this one looks similar

Thanks for the added info kai and Rick.

Is "piso" the same as "pisau"?

and on a side note... "piso podang" - is the piso the same piso as kai referred to (knife)? And is "podang" simply another spelling of pedang? Iknow it might be common knowledge for Indonesian traditional weapon gurus, but I just wanted to clarify that for myself..

Thanks!

[kai]

Hello Vinny,

This knife must have a very small handle right? I mean if the blade is 7.5", then the grip of the handle is probably only 1.5" to 2" right? Or is there a different grip technique?

Yes, these seem to be small backup (and possibly utility) knives. The pommel would fit into the palm like many keris do.

Could the origin be discovered with the sheath style and the pommel style? I hesitate to use that since there's a lot of common hilt styles in Indonesia, for example my favorites - the makara pommel-ed pedangs and klewangs that are attributed to east Sumtra and Lombok... this one looks similar

It's the scabbard rather than the (pretty generic) pommel which allows placing its origin on Sumatra.

Is "piso" the same as "pisau"?

Yup, just another way of writing.

and on a side note... "piso podang" - is the piso the same piso as kai referred to (knife)? And is "podang" simply another spelling of pedang?

Exactly.

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

It would seem to me that this knife is most comfortably held (as a weapon) in the icepick grip edge up .
I have smallish hands and this is the only comfortable grip I can find .

Hilt is 3.5 inches .

As for terminology ...

[kai]

Thanks for the pics/data, Rick!

The hilt, scabbard throat and toe are from dark horn .
The inside of the scabbard is the same color as the exterior as far as I can see .

The wooden part doesn't look terribly old to me. Also the fittings made from horn make me think of post-WW2 craftmanship; I do love the blade though!

IIRC either TVV or VVV had a name to hang on it; that may possibly be found in the original thread .

Not in that thread IIRC.

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

I agree with you Kai, this is a monosteel blade, mid to later 20th century but nicely made (the blade that is) .

[kai]

Hello Rick,

Some of these fullered bades are indeed from monosteel. However, have you tried to etch the blade? The blade could as well be older with replaced fittings...

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

Yep Kai, I tried .
It's monosteel .

[KuKulzA28]

Cool, thanks for all the information and discussion so far guys, I appreciate it.

So the fullered blade and sheath style suggest Sumatra... I am always learning

[Sajen]

Here is another dagger with the same general blade shape, pommel from albino horn but sadly without scabbard, it's 25,5 cm long (10.2").

[kai]

Hello Detlef,

Here is another dagger with the same general blade shape, pommel from albino horn but sadly without scabbard, it's 25,5 cm long (10.2").

Congrats and thanks for sharing!

Looks like a nice knife with good age, probably antique. Let me know if you ever get bored with it...

Incidentally, I obtained a twin of Rick's knife this year and also have an antique version coming in (shown below). The scabbard seems to be quite characteristic; blades and hilts exhibit some variability though.

Without an extant scabbard and yet another blade and hilt styles, your knife may or may not be closely related to the other examples. I hope some more similar Sumatran knifes will show up to close the gaps; I feel we've barely started to scratch the surface considering the diversity of Sumatran piso (and daggers in general)...

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

BTW, here's another piece that sold a while ago: This time with silver-clad hilt; blade and throat of scabbard in yet another variant though!

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by kai

Looks like a nice knife with good age, probably antique. Let me know if you ever get bored with it...

Hello Kai,

Will remember you you when I am boring it.

[QUOTE]
Incidentally, I obtained a twin of Rick's knife this year and also have an antique version coming in (shown below). The scabbard seems to be quite characteristic; blades and hilts exhibit some variability though.

The blade look more like a sewar/siwar blade and not like the one from Rick's knife!?

[QUOTE]
Without an extant scabbard and yet another blade and hilt styles, your knife may or may not be closely related to the other examples.

The blade from my example is much more similar to Rick's example as your one IMVHO. Only the curve of the tip is slightly different.

[QUOTE]
I hope some more similar Sumatran knifes will show up to close the gaps; I feel we've barely started to scratch the surface considering the diversity of Sumatran piso (and daggers in general)...

Hope and feel the same!

[Sajen]

[kai]

Hello Detlef,

The blade look more like a sewar/siwar blade and not like the one from Rick's knife!?

In the antique example shown, only the scabbard suggests a close relationship.

The other one I was talking about (not shown though) really is a twin of Rick's knife and also of later origin (post-WW2).

The blade from my example is much more similar to Rick's example as your one IMVHO. Only the curve of the tip is slightly different.

The fullers in your blade are also quite different. I may or may not be closely related - with the current limited data I won't be able to present a defendable argument.

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by kai

The fullers in your blade are also quite different. I may or may not be closely related - with the current limited data I won't be able to present a defendable argument.

Hello Kai,

yes, the fullers are a little bit different and I agree that we need more data, hopefully others will show their examples (when they have) at this place also.

Best regards,
Detlef