Armoury's Mark?

[celtan]

Hi guys,

I'm letting go one of my M1840 swords, it has a strange mark on the blade, and in a uncommon location. I never got to discover the ID of same, and I would love to solve its riddle befor we finally part ways.

Heck, I'm not even sure it's a mark. iIt might even be an accidental product of circular corrossion?

I'd appreciate any assistance!

Best

M

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Manolo,
I didnt notice your post on this....I'm assuming you're referring to the U.S. M1840 cavalry sabre? Any chance of a full shot, and the location of the 'mark' , any other markings on it?
I'd sure like to help if I can.
All the best,
Jim

[celtan]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the assist. The blade in question is a US M1840 Heavy Cavalry sabre, probably made in Solingen. The kind imported in 1838 and nicknamed "Old Wrist-Breaker".

When I bought it, it was labeled as being part of the first batch imported for evaluation by the US.

I found the mark? accidentally a couple weeks ago, while cleaning the blade from the unsightly old brown preservation goo.

Interesting tidbit, isn't it? Wakes up the old Sherlock Holmes hiding within all sword collectors

Remember the old Danish Hussar Saber?

: )

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Manolo,
I didnt notice your post on this....I'm assuming you're referring to the U.S. M1840 cavalry sabre? Any chance of a full shot, and the location of the 'mark' , any other markings on it?
I'd sure like to help if I can.
All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Manolo,
That definitely seems to be 'the old wristbreaker' the M1840 U.S. Cavalry sabre, and a very nice example! It does have a very unique appearance in comparison to the more familiar examples of course by Ames, and the quillon seems most unusual. While I dont have my copy of Peterson ("The American Sword") handy, and I only have a few notes, it does seem that when the original sword was proposed, to replace the M1833 produced by Ames, the originals did come from Solingen. The M1833 was an iron hilt comparable to the British M1821 light cavalry sabres, and the M1840 was in reference to the French cavalry sabres (I think 1822 pattern?) .

I have seen the M1840 with Walscheid stamps, and it seems that about 1000 of the 1840's were purchased from Schnitzler and Kirshbaum (marked S&K) but I am unclear on the date. There were apparantly difficulties in Ames production with the original contract, I think for 4000.

These were by the late 1840's being produced by a number of makers, who seem to have typically stamped thier name etc at the forte. Ames of course became the primary producer. I wonder if this might have been a 'blank' import which was mounted and not stamped. There is of course a remote, and I emphasize remote possibility, that this could even be a Confederate furbished blade. There were makers who supplied the same style to the Confederate forces, and the covert acquisition of munitions and arms to the South is of course the stuff of legend and height of hopefulness and ambition among collectors.
This is only presented as possible, not necessarily plausible...it might explain the complete absence of marking, which is extremely unusual.

On a sidenote, the reason these were called the 'wristbreaker' was, in my opinion, a colloquial term, applied most likely by troopers who only reluctantly were trained with the use of these. They were considered cumbersome and of little favor with the emphasis on firearms, which certainly would be the case with those who had little understanding of how to use them.

In medical accounts I have seen of the Civil War, it seems most wounds inflicted by sabres were blunt force trauma and bruises. These sabres were seldom kept servicable and maintained, most were seldom, if ever, sharpened.

A truly handsome sabre Manolo, and with this intriguing absence of markings, presents a host of possibilities.....which is the excitement of it all, as it brings out the 'Holmes' in all of us!!!

Thank you for sharing it,
All the best,
Jim

[celtan]

Hola Jim,

I know of one CSA general that actually sharpened the back of his M1840 to make it deadlier in his cavalry charges.

I considered the possibility of this one being French, but they were sticklers for marking their sword blades and hilts, and this one isn't.

It's obvious the strange marking doesn't lie in the traditional ricasso, but more coronal and off-center. With a loupe, you can also see close to the edge, one below each other, some tiny letters: F, I, A, then the number 25...

Heck, I can even see some relatively large letters (IR, IP?)in the left periphery of the seal .

Hmmm. What do you make out of it..?

Best

M

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Manolo,
That definitely seems to be 'the old wristbreaker' the M1840 U.S. Cavalry sabre, and a very nice example! It does have a very unique appearance in comparison to the more familiar examples of course by Ames, and the quillon seems most unusual. While I dont have my copy of Peterson ("The American Sword") handy, and I only have a few notes, it does seem that when the original sword was proposed, to replace the M1833 produced by Ames, the originals did come from Solingen. The M1833 was an iron hilt comparable to the British M1821 light cavalry sabres, and the M1840 was in reference to the French cavalry sabres (I think 1822 pattern?) .

I have seen the M1840 with Walscheid stamps, and it seems that about 1000 of the 1840's were purchased from Schnitzler and Kirshbaum (marked S&K) but I am unclear on the date. There were apparantly difficulties in Ames production with the original contract, I think for 4000.

These were by the late 1840's being produced by a number of makers, who seem to have typically stamped thier name etc at the forte. Ames of course became the primary producer. I wonder if this might have been a 'blank' import which was mounted and not stamped. There is of course a remote, and I emphasize remote possibility, that this could even be a Confederate furbished blade. There were makers who supplied the same style to the Confederate forces, and the covert acquisition of munitions and arms to the South is of course the stuff of legend and height of hopefulness and ambition among collectors.
This is only presented as possible, not necessarily plausible...it might explain the complete absence of marking, which is extremely unusual.

On a sidenote, the reason these were called the 'wristbreaker' was, in my opinion, a colloquial term, applied most likely by troopers who only reluctantly were trained with the use of these. They were considered cumbersome and of little favor with the emphasis on firearms, which certainly would be the case with those who had little understanding of how to use them.

In medical accounts I have seen of the Civil War, it seems most wounds inflicted by sabres were blunt force trauma and bruises. These sabres were seldom kept servicable and maintained, most were seldom, if ever, sharpened.

A truly handsome sabre Manolo, and with this intriguing absence of markings, presents a host of possibilities.....which is the excitement of it all, as it brings out the 'Holmes' in all of us!!!

Thank you for sharing it,
All the best,
Jim

[Hotspur]

Hi guys,

It is somewhat fallacy to to assume very similar sabres to have even been destined for the American market. The general type were widely used by other countries and the Solingen manufacturers prodigous.

As to the forward bent guard, a quite common modification. Whether to hang on something like a belt or for a better thumb rest is unclear in my seeing this. Not unlike so many American nco spadroons with the guard bent on the wear side of carring. Field expedient for what ever reason and not a manufacturing process of those sabres (albeit the spadroons were often made one side drooped or formed for better uniform carry).

Regarding sharpened back edges, a good many versions of these have a grind meant for exactly that, a sharpened bac edge. Clauberg sabers of this type especially noted.

Regarding first trial swords for the American inspection, one dealer references them them as John Thillmann’s “Civil War Cavalry and Artillery Sabers” discusses this rare variation on page 370. This is identical to that example, with the tall pommel cap, blade marking of a diamond with “O” cartouche over 39 over S&K on the blade back, and matching diamond/O over 39 on the face of the guard. Scabbard drag marked crown/D and S&K

Could the cartouche also be found on S&K sabres be fairly widely distributed in Europe before those trials? I don't have Solingen information regarding all associated markings but the other marks mentioned on this sword read to me more like a Prussian or other acceptance and military number/letter markings for a regiment or battalion. Is this an S&K marked sword? I just don't know. I would be looking at European (even South America) markings such as these describe.

I did recently acquire an 1840 type that is entirely devoid of markings on the blade and made in the German fashion of cord over wood, then wire over the leather. This type was/is really the last period of wants for my collecting and researches. Unmarked swords of the period were mroe often thought to be exported from Solingen for whatever purpose an importer/retailer might make use of. Still, a good number of more simply marked with a manufacturer mark and also carry an American retailer's marks. My example has just a small mark on the castings bow and pommel. Still, no real provenance I know of to place it in American use but perhaps more likely than for European proof and unit markings.

That is not to say lots of marked swords did not land on American soils for whatever reason but the markings indicated are likely not sure provenance and history of their use. A good many will state that "of course, it must be Confederate and blockade runner's wares".

The wristbreaker information from Jim is pretty well founded considering the 1833 sabres preceding it and general little training. Another thought regarding that is that the dragoons who then got the fist true contract swords were not as nice as the trial swords had been. What is always a bit of amusement to me is that the French mle1822 and all the Solingen made swords were widely used throughout Europe until (and past) the 20th century and the one complaint we hear from those troops was a rather dismal outlook on the mle1822 swords for serious work.

Cheers

Hotspur; Compare how dainty and lively compared to an mle1854 dragon

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for the additional information Manolo. I think what Glen is saying is very well placed, these may indeed have been European acceptance marks in the cartouche, and the various letters and numerics likely representing the usual initials and inventory.It seems issuance stamps are of course found separate from these type stamps. It is highly worn, so hard to say.

Interesting about the Confederate general's sabre. I should have been more precise concerning comments on Civil War swords. The officers in the Confederate cavalry were indeed colorful , often flamboyant and I have often heard them described as 'the last cavaliers'. I believe they did effectively use sabres, however most of the literature on Civil War events does not reflect much on the use of swords.
I do know that Custer had a sword with a hilt similar to the M1840, but mounted with a huge, straight Spanish broadsword blade, said to have been taken from a Confederate officer in combat during the Civil War. I actually found this sword in the museum at the Little Big Horn, after we had been trying to find it, and believing it was in the Smithsonian. There are discussions on this sword here in the archives, reflecting the research done.

Another sword in similar case was shown here by Matt Branch, it was a Confederate officers sword, with again Spanish broadsword blade marked PDL, (P.D.Luneschloss, Solingen) and inscribed Mexican eagle. This one taken in combat in Tennessee from a Confederate officer.

It seems that these swords carried blades from the swords of Mexican officers taken by U.S. officers who later became officers in the Confederate cavalry. I have seen references with Confederate advirtisements in period newspapers requesting swords or edged weapons to be given for the cause.
It is well known that the Isaac& Co. pattern 1853 British cavalry sabres were sent to the Confederacy.

While the medical records, as noted, show few sword cuts, it does not presume those reports to be comprehensive enough to reflect injuries inflicted or for that matter, deaths, from the clear minority of Confederate officers, or from the sabres used by the outstanding Confederate cavalry units, especially those from Virginia (see Virginia Manufactory thread).

Glen is absolutely right, sabres with these style hilts, again based on the French models with brass hilts and so called Phrygian cap pommels, were used by a number of European countries (yes, including Denmark )
While the preponderance of demand in the U.S. during the Civil War brought a huge volume of swords here, one cannot discount the fact that other countries had demand as well, in varying degree. Solingen, the marketing machine for edged weapons, was as always 'working overtime' !

Glen, thank you for the kind note, and for showing the M1840 and French mle 1854........I've never seen them side by side...what contrast!!
Interesting.......the mle 1854 has a straight blade......I think these were still considered sabres? Another notch in the terminology syndrome.

All best regards,
Jim