Sword handle for ID

Evgeny_K · 6th March 2017, 07:17 PM

Gents,
Asking for your help - I can't identify this cast brass handle.
Any thoughts?

M ELEY · 7th March 2017, 12:52 AM

Some of the Mexican type swords of the 19th c. had cast brass and bronze eagles that looked like this form. See 'Silver Mounted Swords: The Lattimer Family Collection' by Danial Hartzler (There are other swords than the silver hilts here).

Mark

Evgeny_K · 7th March 2017, 09:23 AM

Hi Mark,
Not only Mexican swords. But this handle definitely is not Mexican I think.

Jim McDougall · 8th March 2017, 08:20 PM

It seems extraordinary to see an eagle head pommel type hilt entirely cast in this fashion, though of course the pommels themselves were cast, sometimes to include a backstrap. In addition to these hilts not being cast to include the grip, as with munitions grade swords of late 18th early 19th, the ribbing resembling rope is also atypical to anything I can place.

The eagle is of the crested variety, and as such not strictly proper used as symbol of United States (as observed by Andrew Mowbray, "The American Eagle Pommel Sword", 1988, p.95). However there were British makers providing swords and pommels of these kinds of eagle heads, and the rather short beak on this resembles the Bolton/Upson form (Mowbray, p95) in some degree and is also crested.

It is hard to say where a fully cast eagle pommel hilt like this may have been produced, but clearly it is a munitions grade product perhaps for other ranks or militia of unknown nationality. It is unclear exactly which style eagle head was used in Mexico as a symbol or on some of the eagle head swords which did exist in the early years of the Republic c.1821. It does seem the crested eagle did occur in the symbol, but not sure on the hilts.

ariel · 9th March 2017, 07:23 AM

It is of "European " variety: the tang starts as a rectangular slab of metal , goes through the entire length of the hilt, being transformed into a thin round one and sticks out a bit, being fastened by a nut ( lost patination and scratches on the top).

That eliminates exotic locations ( e.g. some Piso Podangs had eagle heads), but beyond that ...it's above my pay grade. But the word " colonial" is still at the back of my mind.

Hotspur · 9th March 2017, 06:35 PM

Quote:

However there were British makers providing swords and pommels of these kinds of eagle heads, and the rather short beak on this resembles the Bolton/Upson form (Mowbray, p95) in some degree and is also crested.

Not really.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...DA?usp=sharing

To my knowledge, there were no fully cast handle eagles from England.

With first impressions often right, I would go Mexican or other Latin American country. The possibility of European construt would mean finding the catalog image/#. Collins did some cast beasties but this one doesn't ring a bell for that line.

Cheers

GC

Jim, I am not sure how you could see that as Bolton.

The possibilities are endless but I would not add that one to the Bolton/Bates files
Some other eagles
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...mM?usp=sharing

Hotspur · 9th March 2017, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evgeny_K

Hi Mark,
Not only Mexican swords. But this handle definitely is not Mexican I think.

What about the possibility for a musicians hanger? What is peculiar to me about this one is the two other holes in he casting. Are they threaded or just blind holes?

Are we certain we are looking at a sword handle? I agree that is the most likely but we need a sibling to confirm the lineage.

There are the French cockerel handles but those are quite different birds. Eastern European? I like to blame Romania for eagle pommels but examples are scarce and none were cast handles. Poland? I just don't know.

Cheers

GC

Jim McDougall · 9th March 2017, 07:05 PM

There he is!!!! Glen, I was looking forward to you getting here on this!

I must admit fully that eagle heads are way out of my repertoire, and I am at the other end of the spectrum with these......just recently I bought Andrew Mowbray's book (I had meant to buy if from him when he first published it, but regrettably did not).

My suggestion on similarity to Bolton was entirely free association and thought I had qualified my comment accordingly.....but how I would see the 'possible' association ....uh, 'blame it on my ADD

("Sail" AWOL nation)...or maybe the Drambuie.

As always, Mark has keen instincts on all things maritime and of Mexico, so I would very much agree with his suggestion of Mexico concurred with by you, in degree with Latin America as added by you .

Also, I meant to word my comments to say that no fully cast hilts were from England, but that pommels as well as sometimes backstraps included were produced by casting, but that fully cast hilts were usually a munitions grade characteristic.

Sorry for the confusion and I'm glad you're here on this. Really am trying to learn more on these eagle head pommel swords. Thank you Glen .

Best regards
Jim

Evgeny_K · 10th March 2017, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

What about the possibility for a musicians hanger? What is peculiar to me about this one is the two other holes in he casting. Are they threaded or just blind holes?

Are we certain we are looking at a sword handle? I agree that is the most likely but we need a sibling to confirm the lineage.

There are the French cockerel handles but those are quite different birds. Eastern European? I like to blame Romania for eagle pommels but examples are scarce and none were cast handles. Poland? I just don't know.

Cheers
GC

It could be musicians hanger - why not? I don't know and trying to find out.
But this bird is definitely not like the "Latin American" examples.

by the way, here is Polish general Sikorsky sword

Jim McDougall · 10th March 2017, 06:09 PM

Good idea, a musicians sword is among 'other ranks' as previously noted and cannot see why that would not be the case with this item.

6th March 2017, 07:17 PM	#1
Evgeny_K Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 208	Sword handle for ID Gents, Asking for your help - I can't identify this cast brass handle. Any thoughts? Attached Images

7th March 2017, 12:52 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Some of the Mexican type swords of the 19th c. had cast brass and bronze eagles that looked like this form. See 'Silver Mounted Swords: The Lattimer Family Collection' by Danial Hartzler (There are other swords than the silver hilts here). Mark

7th March 2017, 09:23 AM	#3
Evgeny_K Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 208	Hi Mark, Not only Mexican swords. But this handle definitely is not Mexican I think.

8th March 2017, 08:20 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,956	It seems extraordinary to see an eagle head pommel type hilt entirely cast in this fashion, though of course the pommels themselves were cast, sometimes to include a backstrap. In addition to these hilts not being cast to include the grip, as with munitions grade swords of late 18th early 19th, the ribbing resembling rope is also atypical to anything I can place. The eagle is of the crested variety, and as such not strictly proper used as symbol of United States (as observed by Andrew Mowbray, "The American Eagle Pommel Sword", 1988, p.95). However there were British makers providing swords and pommels of these kinds of eagle heads, and the rather short beak on this resembles the Bolton/Upson form (Mowbray, p95) in some degree and is also crested. It is hard to say where a fully cast eagle pommel hilt like this may have been produced, but clearly it is a munitions grade product perhaps for other ranks or militia of unknown nationality. It is unclear exactly which style eagle head was used in Mexico as a symbol or on some of the eagle head swords which did exist in the early years of the Republic c.1821. It does seem the crested eagle did occur in the symbol, but not sure on the hilts.

9th March 2017, 07:23 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It is of "European " variety: the tang starts as a rectangular slab of metal , goes through the entire length of the hilt, being transformed into a thin round one and sticks out a bit, being fastened by a nut ( lost patination and scratches on the top). That eliminates exotic locations ( e.g. some Piso Podangs had eagle heads), but beyond that ...it's above my pay grade. But the word " colonial" is still at the back of my mind.

9th March 2017, 07:05 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,956	There he is!!!! Glen, I was looking forward to you getting here on this! I must admit fully that eagle heads are way out of my repertoire, and I am at the other end of the spectrum with these......just recently I bought Andrew Mowbray's book (I had meant to buy if from him when he first published it, but regrettably did not). My suggestion on similarity to Bolton was entirely free association and thought I had qualified my comment accordingly.....but how I would see the 'possible' association ....uh, 'blame it on my ADD ("Sail" AWOL nation)...or maybe the Drambuie. As always, Mark has keen instincts on all things maritime and of Mexico, so I would very much agree with his suggestion of Mexico concurred with by you, in degree with Latin America as added by you . Also, I meant to word my comments to say that no fully cast hilts were from England, but that pommels as well as sometimes backstraps included were produced by casting, but that fully cast hilts were usually a munitions grade characteristic. Sorry for the confusion and I'm glad you're here on this. Really am trying to learn more on these eagle head pommel swords. Thank you Glen . Best regards Jim

10th March 2017, 06:09 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,956	Good idea, a musicians sword is among 'other ranks' as previously noted and cannot see why that would not be the case with this item.