old shamshir

francantolin · 28th April 2020, 01:04 PM

Hello,
I'd like to share this old shamshir,
maybe persian ?

It was all rusty and hilt was damaged...

francantolin · 28th April 2020, 01:09 PM

Then I cleaned and sand it gently
( I got time with coronavirus... at least one good thing with this problem !)

Was sols as wood handle, it is horn and the blade seems not that bad !

a 19th persian shamshir ?

francantolin · 28th April 2020, 01:17 PM

before cleaning...

David R · 28th April 2020, 02:16 PM

It looks like you got a goodun there.

francantolin · 28th April 2020, 05:26 PM

Hello,
Thank you David!!

I like when old forgotten stuff revive again !!

( I think it's the same for all members on this forum !

)

Finally I think that's the handle is the most interesting piece :
Nice translucence,
Giraffe or maybe rhino !?!

Battara · 29th April 2020, 03:01 AM

Nice job. Yes the hilt could be rhino horn.

Have you etched the blade yet?

francantolin · 29th April 2020, 09:11 AM

Hello and Thank you,

No I haven't etched it,
I have no more ferric chloride ( and no nital here...)

I cleaned the blade with sand paper
WD-40 and vinegar alternately , maybe there is a pattern,
maybe a structure on the guard too

sure I have to try...

Kubur · 29th April 2020, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

Hello,
Finally I think that's the handle is the most interesting piece :
Nice translucence,
Giraffe or maybe rhino !?!

If I put a torch behind by ears for sure they will be red.
But my ears are not rhino...

francantolin · 29th April 2020, 10:55 AM

Sure !

But I don't think your ears are brown when not enlightened
and hope for you they are not thick and hard and fibrous as wood ...

I have other brown horn hilts and no light at all

mahratt · 29th April 2020, 11:49 AM

Thank you for taking a photo backlit. Now the structure of the horn shows that this is not a rhino ...

Green · 29th April 2020, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Thank you for taking a photo backlit. Now the structure of the horn shows that this is not a rhino ...

How does the rhino horn look like when it is backlit ?

Kubur · 29th April 2020, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

How does the rhino horn look like when it is backlit ?

Lines more straight, more compact amd without scales

ariel · 29th April 2020, 02:47 PM

Francantolin:

You got an honest old munition grade shamshir. I like those. Whether it was made in Persia proper, or in one of the "persianized" localities is and will remain unknown, but the overall gestalt is no doubt Persian.

Not every Persian or any other fighter was wealthy enough to afford a walrus handle. This is why we see a lot of Persian shamshirs utilizing cheaper handle materials such as oxhorn, deer antler and even wood. From the practical point of view it did not matter: the proof was in the blade, although even those were of a widely different quality.

It is just like with all other antique objects: museums tend to collect and exhibit flashier examples in a perfect state of preservation: rich materials, weapons belonging to royalty, signed by famous masters etc. Simpler examples were lost, reforged, modified, or just rusted away.

The al-Sabah collection in Kuwait specifically acquires only items that are gem-encrusted, gilt or made of exotic and costly materials. If we use it as as a representative source and a standard, all other Indian weapons would be regarded as renovated or just plain fakes.

mahratt · 29th April 2020, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Lines more straight, more compact amd without scales

Absolutely right

francantolin · 29th April 2020, 07:30 PM

Hello everybody,

Here some pictures of the hilt with / without backlit,

I think too ( thank you Ariel for your comment !) that it was an old fighting weapon and not a ''court sword''.
( is it pre-19th century ??)

First I thought it was made of wood as told the seller or horn,

when I cleaned it and the surface make me think more of ?
don't really know?? : Ibex or deer horn antler
and time and special treatments ...

Then trying with torch light, the translucence directed me to giraffe horn or rhino as often discussed on the forum...

The red light effect is amazing ! ( rhino, giraffe or not )

Hope these pictures can help to fix it.

What do you think ?

francantolin · 29th April 2020, 10:04 PM

And two more ''back light pictures'',
taken with another cellphone and his ''targeted'' torch.

Better...

francantolin · 29th April 2020, 10:05 PM

the other side of the shamshir hilt...

mahratt · 30th April 2020, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

What do you think ?

This is a good shamshir. A real sword for war.
I think this is the 19th century (most likely the second half). The fact is that very few 18th century shamshirs are in private collections.
Now about the handle of a shamshir. The handle is made of a cow horn or buffalo horn. This is normal for that time. A handle from a rhino horn would not be made with such a simple blade and crossguard.

mariusgmioc · 1st May 2020, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

The handle is made of a cow horn or buffalo horn. This is normal for that time. A handle from a rhino horn would not be made with such a simple blade and crossguard.

Very difficult to judge from the pictures but from what I see, the hilt may be rhino horn. It should be noted that rhino horn while not very popular in Persian swords, was almost standard issue on Turkish shamshirs. Also in the 19th century rhino was much more common than it is now... and that is one of the reasons why rhinos are critically endagered species today.

Last but not least, I believe the blade is in quite poor condition and because of that, we cannot correctly assess its quality. After proper maintenance it can be revealed to be a mundane monosteel blade or a beautiful wootz one.

Ren Ren · 1st May 2020, 11:48 AM

I think it could be a ram horn. Before they knew how to straighten him and did not spare time for this.

francantolin · 1st May 2020, 12:25 PM

Hello, thank you all for your comments !

I don't think it's rhino but not convinced by the ''cow-buffalo horn'' too !

Just for discuss,

For the fighter sword and basic hilt argument who can not have rhino or giraffe,

I just wonder about ''basics'' gurade swords with rhino hilts per example or some simple not ornamented old oriental daggers made with rhino ,

for the ''non slippery '' particularity more than for the prestige !
( They were rare but chinese made it more exceptionals these last decades
no ? )

For the prestigious sword mounted with rhino more than horn argument,

I just wanted to show you these pictures of an old shamshir -kilij sold in an auction, reaaaally expensive !
sold as rhino hilted ,
( they are scales and not really straight lines is it ''just'' blond horn ? )

Kind regards

francantolin · 1st May 2020, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Very difficult to judge from the pictures but from what I see, the hilt may be rhino horn. It should be noted that rhino horn while not very popular in Persian swords, was almost standard issue on Turkish shamshirs. Also in the 19th century rhino was much more common than it is now... and that is one of the reasons why rhinos are critically endagered species today.

Last but not least, I believe the blade is in quite poor condition and because of that, we cannot correctly assess its quality. After proper maintenance it can be revealed to be a mundane monosteel blade or a beautiful wootz one.

Sure, I have to try to etch it in the right way and with the right stuff when I can...

ariel · 1st May 2020, 04:03 PM

The handle is old and worn. God only knows what kind of degrading changes it might have undergone. My guess of cattle horn is based mainly on the presence of layers of separation. Rhinos usually do not have it, cattle often does.

I can only second a recommendation for etching.

Overall, I am somewhat pessimistic about the possibility of a precise dating. But in any case, it is certain that you got yourself an old Persian-style Shamshir belonging to a fighting man. For me, with my tastes and criteria of worthiness and attractiveness, it would be more than enough.

28th April 2020, 01:04 PM	#1
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 877	old shamshir Hello, I'd like to share this old shamshir, maybe persian ? It was all rusty and hilt was damaged... Attached Images

28th April 2020, 01:09 PM	#2
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 877	Then I cleaned and sand it gently ( I got time with coronavirus... at least one good thing with this problem !) Was sols as wood handle, it is horn and the blade seems not that bad ! a 19th persian shamshir ? Attached Images

28th April 2020, 01:17 PM	#3
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 877	before cleaning... Attached Images

28th April 2020, 05:26 PM	#5
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 877	Hello, Thank you David!! I like when old forgotten stuff revive again !! ( I think it's the same for all members on this forum ! ) Finally I think that's the handle is the most interesting piece : Nice translucence, Giraffe or maybe rhino !?! Attached Images

29th April 2020, 07:30 PM	#15
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 877	Hello everybody, Here some pictures of the hilt with / without backlit, I think too ( thank you Ariel for your comment !) that it was an old fighting weapon and not a ''court sword''. ( is it pre-19th century ??) First I thought it was made of wood as told the seller or horn, when I cleaned it and the surface make me think more of ? don't really know?? : Ibex or deer horn antler and time and special treatments ... Then trying with torch light, the translucence directed me to giraffe horn or rhino as often discussed on the forum... The red light effect is amazing ! ( rhino, giraffe or not ) Hope these pictures can help to fix it. What do you think ? Attached Images

28th April 2020, 02:16 PM	#4
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	It looks like you got a goodun there.

29th April 2020, 03:01 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Nice job. Yes the hilt could be rhino horn. Have you etched the blade yet?

29th April 2020, 09:11 AM	#7
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 877	Hello and Thank you, No I haven't etched it, I have no more ferric chloride ( and no nital here...) I cleaned the blade with sand paper WD-40 and vinegar alternately , maybe there is a pattern, maybe a structure on the guard too sure I have to try...

29th April 2020, 10:55 AM	#9
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 877	Sure ! But I don't think your ears are brown when not enlightened and hope for you they are not thick and hard and fibrous as wood ... I have other brown horn hilts and no light at all

29th April 2020, 11:49 AM	#10
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Thank you for taking a photo backlit. Now the structure of the horn shows that this is not a rhino ...

29th April 2020, 02:47 PM	#13
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Francantolin: You got an honest old munition grade shamshir. I like those. Whether it was made in Persia proper, or in one of the "persianized" localities is and will remain unknown, but the overall gestalt is no doubt Persian. Not every Persian or any other fighter was wealthy enough to afford a walrus handle. This is why we see a lot of Persian shamshirs utilizing cheaper handle materials such as oxhorn, deer antler and even wood. From the practical point of view it did not matter: the proof was in the blade, although even those were of a widely different quality. It is just like with all other antique objects: museums tend to collect and exhibit flashier examples in a perfect state of preservation: rich materials, weapons belonging to royalty, signed by famous masters etc. Simpler examples were lost, reforged, modified, or just rusted away. The al-Sabah collection in Kuwait specifically acquires only items that are gem-encrusted, gilt or made of exotic and costly materials. If we use it as as a representative source and a standard, all other Indian weapons would be regarded as renovated or just plain fakes.

29th April 2020, 10:04 PM	#16
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 877	And two more ''back light pictures'', taken with another cellphone and his ''targeted'' torch. Better... Attached Images

29th April 2020, 10:05 PM	#17
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 877	the other side of the shamshir hilt...

1st May 2020, 11:48 AM	#20
Ren Ren Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 374	I think it could be a ram horn. Before they knew how to straighten him and did not spare time for this.

1st May 2020, 12:25 PM	#21
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 877	Hello, thank you all for your comments ! I don't think it's rhino but not convinced by the ''cow-buffalo horn'' too ! Just for discuss, For the fighter sword and basic hilt argument who can not have rhino or giraffe, I just wonder about ''basics'' gurade swords with rhino hilts per example or some simple not ornamented old oriental daggers made with rhino , for the ''non slippery '' particularity more than for the prestige ! ( They were rare but chinese made it more exceptionals these last decades no ? ) For the prestigious sword mounted with rhino more than horn argument, I just wanted to show you these pictures of an old shamshir -kilij sold in an auction, reaaaally expensive ! sold as rhino hilted , ( they are scales and not really straight lines is it ''just'' blond horn ? ) Kind regards Attached Images

1st May 2020, 04:03 PM	#23
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The handle is old and worn. God only knows what kind of degrading changes it might have undergone. My guess of cattle horn is based mainly on the presence of layers of separation. Rhinos usually do not have it, cattle often does. I can only second a recommendation for etching. Overall, I am somewhat pessimistic about the possibility of a precise dating. But in any case, it is certain that you got yourself an old Persian-style Shamshir belonging to a fighting man. For me, with my tastes and criteria of worthiness and attractiveness, it would be more than enough.