A mysterious Transylvanian sword : a Sino-Japanese influence possible ?

[Radu Transylvanicus]

A Transylvanian mystery sword : a Sino-Japanese influence possible ?

Years and years ago when I lived Europe, I received as a gift an outstanding catalogue of arms and armour from a fancy German museum , the “Staatliche Kunstammlungen Dresden”.
Less years after, when lecturing more profound, I fell upon the most striking (to me...) weapon in the book :
A sword made in 1674 Transylvania, exactly dated and marked with the name of the armorer as well (not the owner but the maker) Thomas Kapustran with the lingvistically unchallenging inscription in Latin to be more precise: “ THO. KAPUSINO TRANSYLVAN FECIT 1674 “.
A gorgeous, encrusted piece with rows of amethyst gems flanked by the golden plate with inscription and a guard enameled with floral arabesques on a turquoise blue background.
All that is obviously nothing that cannot normally take place in 1674 Transylvania when making a sword but the fact THAT IS SO OBVIOUSLY LIKE A JAPANESE SWORD IN SHAPE is what throws me off, is it quiet striking to anyone that?
I have not seen the sword in reality but even the German catalogue mentions the “samurai look alikelesness” as the first words in its title and description are: “ Sabel mit Scheide in Form japanischer Samuraischwerter”.
All I have is a picture reproduced from the book and the two close ups of same photo of the guard and the handle.
Length: 91 cm Blade: 77 cm Weight: 1350 grams Scabbard: 340 g
Thomas Kapustran was a fairly known Transylvanian armourer and jeweler with a atelier in the city of Klausenburg (known today as Cluj Napoca, Romania)
DEAR LEAGUE OF EXTRAORDINARY GENTLEMEN, LET THE BRAINSTORM BEGIN !
Oher related notes:
Timeline: at the times of making this sword the ruler of Transylvania was Michael Apafi (1661-1690) appointed by Turks as vassal prince (but still independent), a man that in order to preserve the independence was direct allied and partner of Ottoman commander Ali Pascha and the famous French "King Sun” Louis XIV, he was also mingling with Polish court and taking sides against Habsburg Austria.
Image reference and bibliography: Historisches Museum, Staatliche Kunstsammlungen by Johannes Schobel - page 16 and photo # 21 - (see I am really trying to get better at this, Wolviex and Jim, go ahead and laugh at me...)

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Between 1543 until 1650 In Japan took place what was called the "Nanban Period" where foreigners were allowed to enter the the country, most of them merchant visitors from China, Holland, Spain, Portugal and England... That until the feudalist politics initiated the ,,Seclusion Laws" that forbided almost any foreigner to enter Japan and the country become completely isolated for centuries... (The Wikipedia Encyclopedia)
The same Wikipedia Encyclopedia article continues : "One thing the Japanese were definitely interested in was barbarian guns. The first three Europeans to reach Japan were Portuguese and came on a Chinese ship to the southern island of Tanegashima, and they had arquebuses and ammunitions with them. At that time, Japan was right in the middle of a huge civil war called the Sengoku period (Period of the country at war). Strictly speaking, the Japanese were already familiar with gunpowder (invented by, and transmitted from China), and had been using basic Chinese guns and cannon tubes called Teppō (鉄砲 Lit.”Iron cannon”) for around 270 years before the arrival of the Portuguese. The Portuguese guns however were light, had a matchlock firing mechanism and were easy to aim with."
I realise of course the enormity of distances and how historicaly separated European Transylvania and insular Japan are but here is a theory for the start we can evolve by reading the above !
All that in case it was inspired by Japanese and not a Chinese sword !

[Andrew]

Absolutely beautiful, Radu, and a mystery as well! Can you post any photos of the blade?

[Jim McDougall]

Outstanding Radu !!!
Thats what we're talkin' about!!! Thank you.
This is really a fascinating mystery and cant wait to get this one going......as Holmes always said......"the games afoot"!!! ("The Return of Sherlock Holmes" 1904, 'The Adventure of the Abbey Grange' by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle). Ahem, ahem
Seriously, nicely done!
Best regards,
Jim

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Again, unfortunatelly, that is the only photo I have and you see everything there is to it... wish I had pictures of the blade further but not so far ... Is there a chance anyone could dig for another catalog of Dresden Historical Museum (they made quite a few types and editions, I have another one on their firearms...) or maybe someone with a large library, someone in Europe can request another image of it, someone from the Krakow museum for example, with ties ....
Again the museum is: Staatliche Kunstsammlungen Dresden and the section of the establishment where the sword resides is : Der Rüstkammer (The Armoury)... they also have a Jagereikammer (The Hunting Chamber) and a Harnischkammer (The Equine Hall). Here is a link of the on-line Rüstkammer exponates but unfortunatelly the sword is not one of them so far but it has a lot of interesting things, even a keris...
After clicking the link, look for the last icon on the first row to get to you the Armoury (Rüstkammer) image gallery:
http://bildarchiv.skd-dresden.de/skddb/Start.jsp

If I could only see the blade we might even go as far as saying that it was inspired by a dha , wouldn't that be something ?

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

If I could only see the blade we might even go as far as saying that it was inspired by a dha , wouldn't that be something ?

Thinking about it, that might not be such an outlandish idea. The Kingdom of Siam was sending emissaries to the court of Louis XIV, and eventually had an embassar. At the same time, re-fitted (and even non-refitted) Japanese swords were common as royal accessories in Siam. It is not out of the question that among gifts sent to Louie Louie (ohh, oohh, we got to go ....) were one or more Japanese-style swords. Perhaps this armorer saw one, or whoever commissioned it saw one.

As an interesting side-note, the King of Siam gave a Japanese style sword to the U.S. President (I forget who), which is not on display in a corner or the Smithsonian Museum of American History. I will see if I can find a picture on the internet, and if not I'll try and get a photo. It has a beautiful watered steel blade.

Later ...

I remembered that Dan had posted pictures of the "samurai" Siamese court swords on the old forum. Note the similarity in the handles.


The thread is here

[Radu Transylvanicus]

WOLVIEX: Jak się masz, drogi bracie? Dołącz do nas, potrzebuję cię ! Dont answer in Polish !

[tom hyle]

By George, I think Mark may have it! How very interesting. The shape of this handle, while similar to old European depictions of Japanese swords, is notably different from that of real Japanese swords (not flat, swelled-ended), and is however similar to these dhatanas ( ) and to dha in general. Could Europe have conflated two E Asian swords, especially two that are similar and even seem to have blended within that Asian sphere? Doesn't this resemble Burton's illustration of a Japanese sword?

[wolviex]

Radu!

Sorry for being quiet for so long but I was very busy, and still I am.

Now is the weekend. So I'm out of work and decided to idle the time away I think I can find something about Dresden museum in my bookshelf at work - will see, but you will have to wait till Monday.

BEAUTIFUL AND OUTSTANDING WEAPON. You've got already a lot information plus a trace from Mark who is probably nearest to the truth at the moment. First of all I would search for more informations about our Transilvanian armourer, to answer few basic questions: why he has made such sword, and for whom. Without that, and without checking documents in archives we can imagine many different things without end. Does he travelled to the far away countries, does he knew the far away cultures, maybe someone gave him a project of such sword to make? Questions questions.... The floral pattern - do we have other examples of such beautiful depicting elsewhere? Are this European or Eastern flowers? This are the questions which will bring us closer to the truth. How did it found itself in Dresden, by the way? In few years later Dresden became "second capital" of Poland, when Elector of Saxony was elected as the King of Poland - Augustus II. But I think this has nothing to do with this sword anyway

One remark. The handle made of rows of stones reminds me some European (Italian?) daggers of this period. Maybe it's wrong direction, but it's good to consider every possible way.

Regards!

[tom hyle]

I'm certainly no flower botanist, but every aspect of the decoration and production seems European to me. I'm guessing there's a full length peined tang. Are those bands of pottery in the handle? The flowers on them are of an European folk style art, while those on the guard are in the overculture style. An interesting combination. The transverse grindlines obscured by soft buffing seem European?

[fearn]

Hi Wolviex,

Speaking as a botanist, I doubt you're not going to get much clue from the flowers. The flowers on the guard (left to right) could be something in the poppy or barberry family, something in the sunflower family (such as a chrysanthemum) and again something in the poppy or barberry family. The leaves could be chrysanthemum, fern, or whatever. The flowers on the handle are essentially abstract designs.

Basically, my first guess is that we have someone who's botanically illiterate looking at illustrations in an art book and copying them onto the guard and hilt in a pleasing pattern. I have nothing against that, of course (it's art!), but it's useless as a clue. The reason is that the sunflower family is one of the three biggest plant families in the world, and they grow on every landmass north of Antartica (think dandelions--actually, they're probably around MacMurdo Station, too). Poppy relatives and barberries are found throughout the northern hemisphere, and certainly both are in gardens throughout Asia and Europe. Here I'm assuming that the numbers of petals, and the shape of the center of the flower, are meaningful. They could just as easily be sloppiness on the part of the artist. For instance, all of these could be someone's "Hollywood treatment" of roses.

Fundamentally, most of the same plant families occur in northern Asia (China, Korea, Japan), Europe, and north America. A good clue would be a well executed, recognizable flower that's indigenous to some area, or symbolically meaningful in an area (think lotus or rose, for instance), or something tropical (like a ginger) that would provide a clue to tropical SE Asia (or that someone saw a picture of said plant ).

Pretty blade, though.

Fearn

[Tim Simmons]

I may well be talking out of my hat, but the flowers look like Dutch enamel painting,the Dutch were the main early european traders with Japan.Tim

[wolviex]

Hi Fearn

Thank you for this explanation, now we can cross my flower question out of list. Actually, I was just shooting with questions, while not every of them will be important, thought. But, as you wrote: "someone could copy them" without any knowledge about botany (I hope I didn't get you wrong), so the question is, from where? (book, painting, graphic, nature?). I'm historian, but art historians sometimes are looking amongst the graphics for the references to their subject, like scetches, drawings etc. I know that Radu, nowliving in America, may have some problems with looking for such an answer. Maybe it's not most important. I thing the more important is knowledge about maker - and simple question why he decided to make something unusual like this.

Sorry for questioning

[wolviex]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I may well be talking out of my hat, but the flowers look like Dutch enamel painting,the Dutch were the main early european traders with Japan.Tim

And that's why I'm questioning, Tim. Thank you. Who knows - maybe this is a clue! Who has got a picture of "Dutch enamel painting" please post it here for compare!

[tom hyle]

Yes, Tim; that's probably the best known European folk art flower pottery of this sort, at least in N America. You seem to have posted while I was in a long mid-edit smoke and cartoon break I once had the coolest bee broken off of a pot that a river gave to me; I definitely agree to the resemblance, and the merchantile connection seems perhaps meaningful too; thanks. What I'm unsure of is if the style is definitely Dutch, or if that's only its usual N American attribution. Similar work seems more widespread to me. The hilt seems to be assembled somwhat jewelry style; are these layers, or essentially large beads of clay? Or is some other surface painted to look like pottery? Questions for the ether............

[Radu Transylvanicus]

I know as I initiated this quest for the origins of this sword that many options are available so I gave the title a very vague origin area: Sino (pan far Eastearn Asian, from China to Indochina) and Japanese and I just wanna say out of pure feeling of guess but pretty strong, however not too founded yet that my take is that the blade is of Japanese origins while the rest was styled by the Transylvanian armorer.
Perhaps the sword, rather a blade, found its way to Transylvania from Japan while fittings were in bad shape or maybe were not acceptable or "opulently rich" enough to please the ownership; obviously judging by the decoration the owner was beyond wealthy... How I wish we had a blade close-up photo !
One thing I do refuse to think, it is that the sword is of completely European facture 100%, without any direct influence, that I would not accept until someone bring some really solid argument or similar examples !
Quick note: the name inscribed Thomas Kapustran or Thomas Kapusi (as the exact Latin inscription mentions) is most likely a Sachsen (Saxon) minority (athe comunity was much larger then in the 17th century, not so much of a minority like nowadays) of Transylvania. So he probably spoke and think in German mostly ... In Transylvania, alongside Romanians (the ruling majority now demographically and politically) there were two Hungarian speaking nations (Hungarians and Szekely (or Secui in Roomanian language)) and two German(ic) speaking nations (Sachsen (or Sashi in Romanian or Saxons in English) and the Schwaben in southwest Transylvania).
The first German nation of Transylvania, Saxons, migrated from western Europe in the XIII and XIV century. The second nation, the Schwaben, they were more rurally agricultural folkspeople, started arriving in the 18th century so less relevant for our purposes regards the mysteryous sword from Siebenburgen (the German name of Transylvania, meaning :Seven Fortresses)...

[Rick]

Hi Radu , I think that the sword is of completely European manufacture , but 'with' Asian influence . Why do I think that ? The polish on the blade (what I can see of it ) seems very un-oriental , almost chrome like . Also consider the barely apparent grind lines in the steel ; wouldn't a Asian sword show grind lines parallel to the length of the blade ?

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Originally Posted by Rick

Hi Radu , I think that the sword is of completely European manufacture , but 'with' Asian influence . Why do I think that ? The polish on the blade (what I can see of it ) seems very un-oriental , almost chrome like . Also consider the barely apparent grind lines in the steel ; wouldn't a Asian sword show grind lines parallel to the length of the blade ?

Rick, I have a feeling once we get more images, specially of the blade, or more info in a very positive way you will be disapointed, mark my words full of hope ...

[Mick]

fearn

As someone who has spent 15 years in the Antarctic, I can guarantee that there are no dandelions at McMudo unless they someone is growing them in the hydroponics shack.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

Rick, I have a feeling once we get more images, specially of the blade, or more info in a very positive way you will be disapointed, mark my words full of hope ...

You are , no doubt on the hunt my Transylvanian friend .
May you succeed !
I am looking forward to 'disappointment' .

[Andrew]

This is such a cool sword, I really do hope you can dig up some photos of the blade, Radu!

The Japanese connection is apparant to me in the tsuba-like guard and the cosmetic "seppa" and "habaki" at the forte. These features do, as Mark has illustrated, appear on some SEA weapons, likely the result of Japanese or, perhaps, Chinese influence.

Some questions: is the handle round in cross-section? It appears to be, albeit flaring towards the pommel. Conical?

Does the blade have a ridge-line, like a shinogi, or is it a wedge cross-section? If a ridge-line is present, the Japanese connection gets ever stronger, and if a wedge, with that flat spine, I'm leaning more and more toward's Mark's theory.

The tip geometry, and blade construction may well decide matters as to influence and/or origin of the blade. Tom's note about the tang may be impossible to ever learn, but would also be very edifying.

Please keep us posted, Radu.

[tom hyle]

One often sees transverse grind lines on Asian swords. Usually, though not always, there are longwise ones over them, and they are spotty remnants; uneraddicated deep grind lines. However, this blade appears to have been soft-buffed? The lines aren't ground out; they seem smeared or blurred. Note also the squared spine. The habiki, which seems integral to the guard (?) seems to fit flush, meaning the steel is undercut, all around, and is not inlet at the spine.

[fearn]

Originally Posted by Mick

fearn

As someone who has spent 15 years in the Antarctic, I can guarantee that there are no dandelions at McMudo unless they someone is growing them in the hydroponics shack.

Hi Mick,

Cool!

You're probably right, although if they're growing lettuce in a greenhouse, they've got a sunflower relative growing on Antarctica. Yes, I know that the Antarctic native flora consists of two species (a grass and a carnation relative). I also know that some weeds have got a bare toehold around some of the bigger stations like McMurdo. There aren't any google references to dandelions at McMurdo, which I find comforting.

Anyway, this is OT. The basic point was that the flowers can't be used to identify the origin of the sword, and that I'm sticking by. Personally, I agree with the people who are thinking European enamel work, but that's just my minimally informed guess.

Frank

[tom hyle]

And the hamon on a Japanese sword usually goes into the habiki, though the edge bit on a pinch-welded one I know stops considerably short of the blade base, much as is seen on some Oceanic SE Asian work. However, I think I do see folding grain to the steel; this is not neccessarily a sign of Japaneseness or anything; it's what you see in Europe at the time. It's possible a Japanese sword (blade) was given an European polish; I just don't see any real sign of it.

[Andrew]

Browsing an old thread trying to scratch the itch tickling my brain, I came across these photos posted by Dan:


Ratanakosin (late 18th century-mid 20th century) Thai darb.


Ratanakosin Thai darb.


Thai vegetal motifs.


Thai vegetal motifs.

I post these for consideration and discussion.

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002442.html

[Ian]

I've been watching this thread and doing some reading of old materials, including the excellent threads by Dan Wilke which Andrew has referenced.

IMHO this lovely sword is a European's synthesis of what an oriental style sword would be. The disk guard is a composite of Japanese and Chinese styles, with decorations that have a strong SE Asian flavor (as evidenced by the materials that Andrew has linked). The handle also seems a composite, being closer to Chinese than Japanese in form and perhaps artistic design. The "habaki" has a purely Japanese heritage, AFAIK.

With such a profusion of Oriental influences, this strikes me as one man's impression of what an oriental sword of distinction might look like. There is no need to suspect the sword maker ever saw a real Japanese sword, much less handled one. He would only need some basic descriptions, and perhaps a few line drawings or decorations on ceramics to guide the art style, and the rest could be left to the creativity of the designer and fabricator of the sword.

That this is work of the highest quality for its time is not disputed. But I'm going to agree with Rick and say that this is entirely a European creation. I don't think we need to see any more of this sword to reasonably reach that conclusion. The man who signed his name to this sword was a master craftsman, and the sword is testimony to his genius.

[BTW, as an aside, the top sword shown by Andrew in the post immediately above has an inscription on the blade written in Thai but the gold collar around the blade that resembles an habaki is signed in Burmese script. It is Thai sword, but seems to have been made by a Burmese. Given the level of animosity between the Thai and Burmish at that time, the use of Burmese crafstmen to create a sword of this quality and distinction seems unusual.]

[Radu Transylvanicus]

IAN quote "That this is work of the highest quality for its time is not disputed. But I'm going to agree with Rick and say that this is entirely a European creation. I don't think we need to see any more of this sword to reasonably reach that conclusion. The man who signed his name to this sword was a master craftsman, and the sword is testimony to his genius."

IAN, I like your first phrase better: "a European's synthesis of what an oriental style sword would be" and you must agree once an Oriental sword ( wether Japanese, Chinese or Indochinese) has been the decisional factor and inspiration, basically the muse of this one sword regardless if it is from a visual memory, from a description, from a graphic or artistic resource it ceases to exist as "completely European" but I have a gut feeling that actualy it might actually incorporate real parts from an original Asian sword, I still primarily stick with Japanese heritage IMO and I leave the dha variant as secondary option.
And against odds, I really do think we need to see all the sword including scabbard, the grip and one short section of the blade we saw so far are far from enough to basis for a final conclusion, more like stirring the spirits. Its far from over...
I would also like to thank everyone of you for the aflux of ideeas, opinions , resources and energy you all well spend in this quest, its a good reminder why I love this Forum so much !
Other things I see: the gems and encrusting has been executed in Transylvania, that I have no doubt, more likely by Thomas Kapustran and am almost certain it is the case with the floral enameling, that is 100% European somehow similar examples can be seen in Ottoman art (again, we are in 1674 Transylvania and Turk Ottoman control weights heavy!)
As far as the guard, that is one of the most un-European things on this sword, the resemblance if not similarity with a tsuba is striking and corect me if I'm wrong, you even have the riobitsu holes (look on the second image closer) regardless if purpose or simply fashion. Further you see the fittings welded together the collar (habaki) and spacers (seppa).
As far as the disconcern for the blade as being original, remember not all, as a matter of fact very many blades were made of plain non-grain steel named muji, commonly seen in the maru-gitae swords of the New Sword period (1530 to 1868)... Maru gitae is a type of construction with one grade steel used for mass production. Swords of this type ussualy reveal a smooth grainless appearance on their surfaces. Credits: The Samurai Sword - a handbook by J. M. Yumoto . Chapters: Blade construction / Grain pages 94 & 95
Last night I had a sweet dream that myself I dismantled the jewelry from the grip of the sword and there was a big old Kanji signature on the tang there but that was just my dream... I also had this one dream when I was a child that one day I will come to America ...ahem. ahem ... and last winter I got my Greencard ...

[tom hyle]

A/ such relatively homogenous steel would still, at the time, be folded and have grain. B/ equally in Europe as in Japan. C/in the one closeup I see several spots of what I'm pretty sure are folds/lamination.
I disagree that bigger pictures, overall pictures are liable to tell us much more though I'd enjoy them; closeups of the blade would probably be the most useful, and we have them. More would not likely tell us more, except that it might be useful to see the tip of the blade (though if it's "correct" that tells us little, and if it's "incorrect" there is much more variation in old Japanese swords than people often seem to realized, so that tells us little, too.). I think the guard/seppa(and there are similar features on many European swords; sheath lids, oval discs, and leather and felt washers of the seppa shape)/habiki was cast in one piece. I'm not certain, but that's my thinking. Look inside the piercings; look where each flows into the other; I see no join lines, though certainly such can be cleverly hidden. I do not think the silver ring around the edge is a layer; I think it's a ring soldered into a groove. This is guesswork based on what I can see; it could be wrong; those brass coloured flower centers could be rivets, even. (photos..... ) I still see nothing to argue for an Asian origin for this heavily Asian-influenced object. The Ottoman connection seems interesting, but the handle construction seems European? One thing worth noting is that the blade seems to have a shinogi zukuri cross-section; sabre-bevelled with a (somewhat rounded and indestinct, but present) ridge down the middle(ish) of its width.

[tom hyle]

Hmmm. I think I do now see layering inside one of the piercings, and the layer line I see delineates the same thickness as seen framing the silve line at the edges. Hmmm. A stacked rivetted guard reminds me most closely of "migration era" German work, which is way out of sphere......

[Radu Transylvanicus]

I am very proud to say that minutes ago, I sent an e-letter to the host establishment of the sword in discussion, the German museum of "Staatliche Kunstsammlungen Dresden" with a request for additional images and written information and hopefully my kharma is good !
Wolviex, how about the prestigious Krakow Museum library, anything you can dig up would be appreciated !