African knife and spears of unknown origin.

keysort · 23rd July 2010, 05:52 PM

Hi, this is my first post at Viking Sword. I am not an avid Ethnographic Arms Collector, but I do appreciate them and I have inherited a few. My great-grandfather was a missionary in Liberia (I do not know what years) and he was given these spears and this knife.

The spears are just iron and wood, bound by a sinew or other kind of flat cord. They are a little over 2.5 feet long each and have no markings whatsoever.

The knife appears to be made of bronze and I believe the grip is Ivory (he brought back lots of ivory pieces from Liberia). I am not sure, but I think the ring on the grip may indicate it as a bayonet, but I do not know of any rifles or muskets that this knife would fit. The sheath is a woven material over leather and I was told the tip of the sheath was a Lion's tail.

I hope someone here can identify these!

Tim Simmons · 24th July 2010, 04:53 PM

Very intereting and helpful. Zorzor or "Zrozor" which could be a local spelling or a mistake. look at this link-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=bayonet

Zorzor is on the border of Guinea, French west Africa so I do not think there would be any Turkish influence as I suggest in the link. Unless the Turks raided that far. Very intersting to see anyway. Perhaps based on a British bayonet? I think known as a hookie.

I would imaging the spears are from the same area, they look great to me. How long are they? What is the white material stuff on the scabbard? Any Idea when your great grandfather was there? You could give your age so we could make a guess?

I see you have given lengths. Is that length just the steel blades?

Tim Simmons · 24th July 2010, 05:32 PM

Liberia and Zorzor in particular, being surrounded by Guinea and Ivory coast both part of French West Africa. I would imagine the inspiring model for your item and mine is most likely the Berthier bayonet. Your post has been really helpful.

keysort · 25th July 2010, 07:40 AM

This knife does loosely resemble that Turkish bayonet.

The total lengths of both spears are a little over 2.5 feet. The smaller spear tip is 8.5 inches long. The larger one is about 1 foot long.

The knife has a 7.25 inch blade and is 11.5 long. I don't know what the white woven material on the scabbard is. It feels like leather, but I don't know.

I think my great-grandfather would have been in Liberia in the 1920's. I am 20 years old. He also brought back lots of beautiful carvings in wood and in ivory, but I have not yet inherited those from my grandmother.

keysort · 25th July 2010, 07:58 AM

Tim,
Thanks for your reply! This knife definitely resembles your bayonet.

The spears' total lengths are 2.5 feet long. The larger spearhead is a foot long, the other is about 9 inches long.

The knife's blade is about 7.5 inches long, the knife is about 11 inches long total. The woven white material feels like leather, but I am not sure what it is.

My grandfather would have been there around the 1920's, I am 20 years old. I am not completely sure when, I will find out and post it. He also brought back lots of wood and ivory carvings that are beautiful.

Do you have any idea what spears and knives like these are worth?

Tim Simmons · 25th July 2010, 04:41 PM

Thanks for getting back on this thread. I now think there is no Turkish influence, only French. If you google "Berthier Bayonet" you will find a good match for the form of blade and the scabbard, which also imitates the berthier bayonet frog. It is also good to confirm the early 20th century manufacture. Indeed some items like this could well have been made at the turn of the 19th century. Thank you for making clear the size of the spears. They look to be dance spears and nice pieces to my mind. We do not enter into suggestions of value on this open form. You can email or PM members if you like.

PS, The white material on the scabbard looks like some kind of leatherette or faux leather. Imitation leather materials made a commercial appearance in the late 19th century. Your item is very clean and nice. The spears are great, but that is just my oppinion, most other will differ greatly.

Tim Simmons · 25th July 2010, 05:42 PM

Something we have to keep in mind. We are so familiar with "modern" materials like aluminium and faux leather we forget that at one time these were hot stuff and not cheap. How long will it be before we all walk around with a tablet selling for no more than say £50.

keysort · 25th July 2010, 07:34 PM

Tim,
You are exactly right! I recall hearing that around the turn of the century aluminum was more valuable than platinum! So you think the spears are from the turn of the century, too?

23rd July 2010, 05:52 PM	#1
keysort Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 4	African knife and spears of unknown origin. Hi, this is my first post at Viking Sword. I am not an avid Ethnographic Arms Collector, but I do appreciate them and I have inherited a few. My great-grandfather was a missionary in Liberia (I do not know what years) and he was given these spears and this knife. The spears are just iron and wood, bound by a sinew or other kind of flat cord. They are a little over 2.5 feet long each and have no markings whatsoever. The knife appears to be made of bronze and I believe the grip is Ivory (he brought back lots of ivory pieces from Liberia). I am not sure, but I think the ring on the grip may indicate it as a bayonet, but I do not know of any rifles or muskets that this knife would fit. The sheath is a woven material over leather and I was told the tip of the sheath was a Lion's tail. I hope someone here can identify these!

25th July 2010, 07:58 AM	#5
keysort Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 4	Thanks! Tim, Thanks for your reply! This knife definitely resembles your bayonet. The spears' total lengths are 2.5 feet long. The larger spearhead is a foot long, the other is about 9 inches long. The knife's blade is about 7.5 inches long, the knife is about 11 inches long total. The woven white material feels like leather, but I am not sure what it is. My grandfather would have been there around the 1920's, I am 20 years old. I am not completely sure when, I will find out and post it. He also brought back lots of wood and ivory carvings that are beautiful. Do you have any idea what spears and knives like these are worth?

24th July 2010, 04:53 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,782	Very intereting and helpful. Zorzor or "Zrozor" which could be a local spelling or a mistake. look at this link- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=bayonet Zorzor is on the border of Guinea, French west Africa so I do not think there would be any Turkish influence as I suggest in the link. Unless the Turks raided that far. Very intersting to see anyway. Perhaps based on a British bayonet? I think known as a hookie. I would imaging the spears are from the same area, they look great to me. How long are they? What is the white material stuff on the scabbard? Any Idea when your great grandfather was there? You could give your age so we could make a guess? I see you have given lengths. Is that length just the steel blades?

24th July 2010, 05:32 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,782	Liberia and Zorzor in particular, being surrounded by Guinea and Ivory coast both part of French West Africa. I would imagine the inspiring model for your item and mine is most likely the Berthier bayonet. Your post has been really helpful.

25th July 2010, 07:40 AM	#4
keysort Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 4	This knife does loosely resemble that Turkish bayonet. The total lengths of both spears are a little over 2.5 feet. The smaller spear tip is 8.5 inches long. The larger one is about 1 foot long. The knife has a 7.25 inch blade and is 11.5 long. I don't know what the white woven material on the scabbard is. It feels like leather, but I don't know. I think my great-grandfather would have been in Liberia in the 1920's. I am 20 years old. He also brought back lots of beautiful carvings in wood and in ivory, but I have not yet inherited those from my grandmother.

25th July 2010, 04:41 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,782	Thanks for getting back on this thread. I now think there is no Turkish influence, only French. If you google "Berthier Bayonet" you will find a good match for the form of blade and the scabbard, which also imitates the berthier bayonet frog. It is also good to confirm the early 20th century manufacture. Indeed some items like this could well have been made at the turn of the 19th century. Thank you for making clear the size of the spears. They look to be dance spears and nice pieces to my mind. We do not enter into suggestions of value on this open form. You can email or PM members if you like. PS, The white material on the scabbard looks like some kind of leatherette or faux leather. Imitation leather materials made a commercial appearance in the late 19th century. Your item is very clean and nice. The spears are great, but that is just my oppinion, most other will differ greatly.

25th July 2010, 05:42 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,782	Something we have to keep in mind. We are so familiar with "modern" materials like aluminium and faux leather we forget that at one time these were hot stuff and not cheap. How long will it be before we all walk around with a tablet selling for no more than say £50.

25th July 2010, 07:34 PM	#8
keysort Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 4	Tim, You are exactly right! I recall hearing that around the turn of the century aluminum was more valuable than platinum! So you think the spears are from the turn of the century, too?