Keris For Comment ?

Rick · 29th November 2005, 02:22 AM

Very interesting keris .
http://tinyurl.com/da99s

LabanTayo · 29th November 2005, 03:59 AM

I was watching that one too.....
I'm not a Keris expert, but I thought it was interesting/cool.

Rick · 29th November 2005, 04:16 AM

Yeah , it is interesting ......
Not old though IMO
Funny material that the wrongko is made of .
I think it might really be Whalebone .
Takes a long time to get the oil and stink out of the stuff though .

VANDOO · 29th November 2005, 04:18 AM

A VERY NICE TOP QUALITY CONTEMPORARY BALI KRIS, I WONDER WHY IT IS SOLD VIA A DEALER IN CHINESE STUFF? PERHAPS IT WAS COMISSIONED FOR RESALE IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE. IF IT WAS PROFITABLE ENOUGH PERHAPS WE WILL SEE MORE OF THE SAME. I ESPECIALLY LIKED THE PICTURES OF THE OLD WORK WORN HANDS HOLDING THE KERIS IN THE LAST PICTURE.

John · 29th November 2005, 05:38 AM

I've handled 3 similar wrangkas including this one in my possession. The carving depicts scenes from the Ramayana said to be pertaining to the abduction of Sita, consort of Rama. There is also the guardian Boma at the middle. The wrangka carving is a little coarse and material looks to be similar to mine which is whalebone. Such wrangkas appeared recently and not seen pre WW II or later but I thought they are nice.

I don't believe having seen a similar hulu (handle) anywhere and the blade looks to be well made and of good quality.

Rick · 29th November 2005, 04:04 PM

John , are Whale strandings common in your part of the world ?
This seems to be a very unusual and really not such a great ( IMO ) material to use for a wrongko .
Most Whale bone is ridiculously porous .

There may be a symbolism attached to its use but I guess it would be a symbolism recently acquired. Which brings me to another question ; but that's for another thread .

John · 29th November 2005, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

John , are Whale strandings common in your part of the world ?
This seems to be a very unusual and really not such a great ( IMO ) material to use for a wrongko .
Most Whale bone is ridiculously porous .

Well Rick, if you're suggesting it's not whalebone, probably you could enlighten what you know to be or have been told to be. I'd be interested and conclusive corrections would be very welcomed. My comments were based on description and I acknowledge there's a possiblilty of error.

The wrangka I have is fairly porous although I wouldn't describe it as "ridiculously porous". But why do you opine WB as "very unusual and not a great material to use"?

Rick · 29th November 2005, 05:14 PM

No John , I'm not doubting that it's whalebone at all .
I'm sorry if I gave offense .

I've taken a few whales apart for the bones myself with a chainsaw many years ago
(ugh and Gag!!)

I'm familiar with its properties and IMO in a non fossilised or hardened state it wouldn't be a great material to do detailed carving with (too susceptible to chipping and crumbling) . The fact that so much detail was achieved I find impressive .
Is your wrongko carved in relief like this one ?
Got pictures ?

John · 29th November 2005, 05:54 PM

Sorry to have given a wrong "signal" Rick.

How could I take offence from someone I've a lot of respect for. I certainly did anticipate you knew what you were talking about earlier which now is obvious for one who has hands on experience taking apart whales and bones. Your points are well noted. Thanks.

You could look at pics of my piece by clicking on the word "one" of my preceding post or from this earlier thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002016.html

nechesh · 29th November 2005, 06:03 PM

I've watched this sellers keris auctions for some time now. I have yet to be impressed by his items or his stories.
IMHO this is a fairly new ensemble all around, manufactured to sell to well off western clientle. The blade isn't terrible, the pamor work looks fairly descent, but i am not the least bit impressed with the carving of the ganesha, which looks rough and not very well defined. As for his stories about it's origins and the notches placed there by the "warrior priest" for each battle he fought in.....well, decide for yourself.

I have seen these sheaths before and have seen nicer (John's is a good example). I whale is a great beasty and i would think that some of it's bone, though porous, would be fairly substantial for carving. The pendok looks a little shady here in that, in the photos at least, the materials don't look like real gold or silver and the reprousse looks cheap to my eyes.
The hilt is the only part of this ensemble i find truly interesting. It looks to be a beautiful and unique bit of carving.

Rick · 29th November 2005, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John

Sorry to have given a wrong "signal" Rick.

How could I take offence from someone I've a lot of respect for. I certainly did anticipate you knew what you were talking about earlier which now is obvious for one who has hands on experience taking apart whales and bones. Your points are well noted. Thanks.

You could look at pics of my piece by clicking on the word "one" of my preceding post or from this earlier thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002016.html

My apologies John , I'm a little color blind in the red end of the spectrum and didn't notice the color change on the word .

I wonder if the bone has been treated some way for that is not its natural color when fresh . Also that piece is a superior example of the material .

Does it feel 'light' in your hand ?

I have only taken apart Sperm , Humpback , and Pilot whales .*
*(if the US Gov't is reading this ; it was in the 60's before the M.M.P.A. Guys , honest !)

Oh , and Nechesh I agree that this is a pretty non-traditional keris and the sales pitch is quite interesting .

I still come back to the question ; why don't we see 'elderly examples of this wrongko material ?

nechesh · 29th November 2005, 06:38 PM

I think we don't see older examples of this material either because it's use is fairly recent or it just doesn't hold up over time because of it's fragility. I think you will find this to be the case with fossilized elephant tooth as well. Almost all of the examples we see are contemporary. Even though it is hard it is very brittle and if there were a lot of older example (i don't really think there were) they didn't hold up.
As nice as that frog on th lily pads hilt is in this modern piece, i would be VERY wary about handling it at all. It is art for art sake with no functionality to it.

Battara · 30th November 2005, 02:06 AM

I have to agree with Nechesh. Whalebone is somewhat prized, but the fragility is what I would question. I have seen one kampilan done in whalebone. Amazing, but parts did not seem to hold up as well as others. Fossil elephant ivory is also a problem - talismanic, but very fragile and thus have only seen 3 Moro examples, one of which I own.

I have also been eyeing this keris and was wondering about it. Personally I love John's better, this is a nice one too.

John · 30th November 2005, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

My apologies John , I'm a little color blind in the red end of the spectrum and didn't notice the color change on the word .

I wonder if the bone has been treated some way for that is not its natural color when fresh . Also that piece is a superior example of the material .

Does it feel 'light' in your hand ?

I have only taken apart Sperm , Humpback , and Pilot whales .*
*(if the US Gov't is reading this ; it was in the 60's before the M.M.P.A. Guys , honest !)

If you're refering to my piece Rick, I'm not able to tell if it has been treated as the patination seems natural enough but as the carvings are also quite deep, areas beyond the touch of hands are "whiter" than surface areas. There ain't any chips or cracks at all in spite of the deep detailed carvings but now learning this material is fragile, I'll be extra careful not to drop it or knock against anything etc that may cause damage. I also have a fossilised elephant molar wrangka and would opine with proper care and storage, these items would be as lasting. Also I thought elderly material like ivory would be quite brittle or breakable as well.

It does have a "light" feel and does not appear to be quite hard. I looked again at the "porous" aspect and would say it doesn't seem that porous but it's definitely bone.

Rick · 30th November 2005, 04:49 AM

Hi John ,
you have a very dense , nice example of bone that makes up your wrongko
whereas the example we are discussing is of much poorer quality .

I wonder does yours have any scent at all and which part of the skeleton it was from ?

I know that here we used to leave the pieces (vertebrae) outside on the roof of a shed or garage for a few years to 'sweeten' them as they were so oily .

Possibly the bone is boiled over there to get the oil out .

A gateway made from jawbones a couple of miles away from my house .

http://tinyurl.com/b6y7s

Andrew · 30th November 2005, 05:07 AM

A whaler? I had no idea! (Living on Cape Cod, too.

)

For what it's worth, the whale bone I've handled was suprisingly light and brittle-seeming. It was old and carved (crude "sailor" art dated to the early 18th century), with no memorable smell. A pure art piece.

John · 30th November 2005, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Hi John ,

...I wonder does yours have any scent at all and which part of the skeleton it was from ?

I know that here we used to leave the pieces (vertebrae) outside on the roof of a shed or garage for a few years to 'sweeten' them as they were so oily .

Possibly the bone is boiled over there to get the oil out .

A gateway made from jawbones a couple of miles away from my house .

http://tinyurl.com/b6y7s

The keris was scent oiled (included the wrangka) when purchased which I'm afraid had overcomed whatever natural odour the bone may have had. How would you describe the raw smell? See if I could pick any faint odour up. No idea on which part of the skeleton it came from and also no idea where those Balinese craftsmen sourced their material from. But I think it's fair to say unless proven or affirmatively confirmed it remains as "probable whalebone" as far as my piece is concern.

I've not seen raw whalebone in person and the jawbones in your picture do look rather white on the surface.

Rick · 30th November 2005, 05:55 PM

Hi John , those jawbones are well over 100 years old ; they are white because they are now painted ; if they had been left to weather after so many years they most likely would be a slate gray with mildew specks in the pores .

Initially whalebone is white ; if it is left to weather will stay white until it gets mossy ... anyway ; a picture is worth a thousand words .

John · 1st December 2005, 01:24 AM

That's quite a chunk of bone and looks large/thick enough for a few crosspieces if indeed those parts are suitable.

I've been trying to match your descriptions with whatever I could observe on my crosspiece and perhaps it's of a well selected denser part of bone which also goes rather well in weight, balance and feel with the rest of sheath and keris overall. However, the minimal porousness did make me wonder if the bone is whale's afterall but there again the crosspiece is quite a chunk with other characteristics quite matching although it doesn't look as fragile.

Thanks Rick for the first hand information.

BSMStar · 2nd December 2005, 02:43 AM

Rick,

Nice Whale vertebra. I found one in Baja 30 some years ago... It had been around for awhile. It was bleached white and very porous. I was a bit surprised to see how "solid" your specimen looked. I learn more every day! Thanks for the post!

Rick · 2nd December 2005, 03:10 AM

My pleasure !

I happen to live on a salt marsh behind a beach that is famous for whale strandings ; one such event even made Time magazine back in the eighties ; I believe a hundred or more Pilot Whales came ashore at that time . That particular vertebra was from a far older stranding ; I found it while walking the marsh .

That is a small example ; a Spermacetti sized one would make a good stepping stone for a walkway .

The smooth surface is just that , a surface ; underneath it is a honeycomb of pores , and it still stinks a little after more than 30 years .

29th November 2005, 02:22 AM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Keris For Comment ? Very interesting keris . http://tinyurl.com/da99s

30th November 2005, 04:49 AM	#15
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hi John , you have a very dense , nice example of bone that makes up your wrongko whereas the example we are discussing is of much poorer quality . I wonder does yours have any scent at all and which part of the skeleton it was from ? I know that here we used to leave the pieces (vertebrae) outside on the roof of a shed or garage for a few years to 'sweeten' them as they were so oily . Possibly the bone is boiled over there to get the oil out . A gateway made from jawbones a couple of miles away from my house . http://tinyurl.com/b6y7s Last edited by Rick; 30th November 2005 at 05:03 AM.

30th November 2005, 05:55 PM	#18
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hi John , those jawbones are well over 100 years old ; they are white because they are now painted ; if they had been left to weather after so many years they most likely would be a slate gray with mildew specks in the pores . Initially whalebone is white ; if it is left to weather will stay white until it gets mossy ... anyway ; a picture is worth a thousand words . Attached Images

29th November 2005, 03:59 AM	#2
LabanTayo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kansas City Posts: 177	I was watching that one too..... I'm not a Keris expert, but I thought it was interesting/cool.

29th November 2005, 04:16 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Yeah , it is interesting ...... Not old though IMO Funny material that the wrongko is made of . I think it might really be Whalebone . Takes a long time to get the oil and stink out of the stuff though .

29th November 2005, 04:18 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A VERY NICE TOP QUALITY CONTEMPORARY BALI KRIS, I WONDER WHY IT IS SOLD VIA A DEALER IN CHINESE STUFF? PERHAPS IT WAS COMISSIONED FOR RESALE IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE. IF IT WAS PROFITABLE ENOUGH PERHAPS WE WILL SEE MORE OF THE SAME. I ESPECIALLY LIKED THE PICTURES OF THE OLD WORK WORN HANDS HOLDING THE KERIS IN THE LAST PICTURE.

29th November 2005, 05:38 AM	#5
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	I've handled 3 similar wrangkas including this one in my possession. The carving depicts scenes from the Ramayana said to be pertaining to the abduction of Sita, consort of Rama. There is also the guardian Boma at the middle. The wrangka carving is a little coarse and material looks to be similar to mine which is whalebone. Such wrangkas appeared recently and not seen pre WW II or later but I thought they are nice. I don't believe having seen a similar hulu (handle) anywhere and the blade looks to be well made and of good quality.

29th November 2005, 04:04 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	John , are Whale strandings common in your part of the world ? This seems to be a very unusual and really not such a great ( IMO ) material to use for a wrongko . Most Whale bone is ridiculously porous . There may be a symbolism attached to its use but I guess it would be a symbolism recently acquired. Which brings me to another question ; but that's for another thread .

29th November 2005, 05:14 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	No John , I'm not doubting that it's whalebone at all . I'm sorry if I gave offense . I've taken a few whales apart for the bones myself with a chainsaw many years ago (ugh and Gag!!) I'm familiar with its properties and IMO in a non fossilised or hardened state it wouldn't be a great material to do detailed carving with (too susceptible to chipping and crumbling) . The fact that so much detail was achieved I find impressive . Is your wrongko carved in relief like this one ? Got pictures ?

29th November 2005, 05:54 PM	#9
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Sorry to have given a wrong "signal" Rick. How could I take offence from someone I've a lot of respect for. I certainly did anticipate you knew what you were talking about earlier which now is obvious for one who has hands on experience taking apart whales and bones. Your points are well noted. Thanks. You could look at pics of my piece by clicking on the word "one" of my preceding post or from this earlier thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002016.html

29th November 2005, 06:03 PM	#10
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I've watched this sellers keris auctions for some time now. I have yet to be impressed by his items or his stories. IMHO this is a fairly new ensemble all around, manufactured to sell to well off western clientle. The blade isn't terrible, the pamor work looks fairly descent, but i am not the least bit impressed with the carving of the ganesha, which looks rough and not very well defined. As for his stories about it's origins and the notches placed there by the "warrior priest" for each battle he fought in.....well, decide for yourself. I have seen these sheaths before and have seen nicer (John's is a good example). I whale is a great beasty and i would think that some of it's bone, though porous, would be fairly substantial for carving. The pendok looks a little shady here in that, in the photos at least, the materials don't look like real gold or silver and the reprousse looks cheap to my eyes. The hilt is the only part of this ensemble i find truly interesting. It looks to be a beautiful and unique bit of carving.

29th November 2005, 06:38 PM	#12
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I think we don't see older examples of this material either because it's use is fairly recent or it just doesn't hold up over time because of it's fragility. I think you will find this to be the case with fossilized elephant tooth as well. Almost all of the examples we see are contemporary. Even though it is hard it is very brittle and if there were a lot of older example (i don't really think there were) they didn't hold up. As nice as that frog on th lily pads hilt is in this modern piece, i would be VERY wary about handling it at all. It is art for art sake with no functionality to it.

30th November 2005, 02:06 AM	#13
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	I have to agree with Nechesh. Whalebone is somewhat prized, but the fragility is what I would question. I have seen one kampilan done in whalebone. Amazing, but parts did not seem to hold up as well as others. Fossil elephant ivory is also a problem - talismanic, but very fragile and thus have only seen 3 Moro examples, one of which I own. I have also been eyeing this keris and was wondering about it. Personally I love John's better, this is a nice one too.

30th November 2005, 05:07 AM	#16
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	A whaler? I had no idea! (Living on Cape Cod, too. ) For what it's worth, the whale bone I've handled was suprisingly light and brittle-seeming. It was old and carved (crude "sailor" art dated to the early 18th century), with no memorable smell. A pure art piece.

1st December 2005, 01:24 AM	#19
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	That's quite a chunk of bone and looks large/thick enough for a few crosspieces if indeed those parts are suitable. I've been trying to match your descriptions with whatever I could observe on my crosspiece and perhaps it's of a well selected denser part of bone which also goes rather well in weight, balance and feel with the rest of sheath and keris overall. However, the minimal porousness did make me wonder if the bone is whale's afterall but there again the crosspiece is quite a chunk with other characteristics quite matching although it doesn't look as fragile. Thanks Rick for the first hand information.

2nd December 2005, 02:43 AM	#20
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Rick, Nice Whale vertebra. I found one in Baja 30 some years ago... It had been around for awhile. It was bleached white and very porous. I was a bit surprised to see how "solid" your specimen looked. I learn more every day! Thanks for the post!

2nd December 2005, 03:10 AM	#21
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	My pleasure ! I happen to live on a salt marsh behind a beach that is famous for whale strandings ; one such event even made Time magazine back in the eighties ; I believe a hundred or more Pilot Whales came ashore at that time . That particular vertebra was from a far older stranding ; I found it while walking the marsh . That is a small example ; a Spermacetti sized one would make a good stepping stone for a walkway . The smooth surface is just that , a surface ; underneath it is a honeycomb of pores , and it still stinks a little after more than 30 years .