Information needed Peru bolas weapon

Tim Simmons · 3rd May 2016, 03:14 PM

This caught my eye and it fits the way my collection is focused, cheap too. The seller calls it a Huaybinto. I have not been able to find any proper information on this type of short weapon bolas on the net. Just a few general comments stating it is a mountain peasants weapon which I know. It does not look like a tourist thing to me. It might have some age to it? Are they still in use today? or replaced by shot guns? Is life in the Peruvian mountains any thing like life in areas PNG where weapons traditional and modern are part of life and local violence? For once good simple pictures from a seller. Some members might have information to hand? I think it looks pretty good.

Roland_M · 3rd May 2016, 03:42 PM

I think this is a weapon of war, a Bola Perdida ("lost bullet"), a slingshot with a fixed sling. Used for example by the Tehuelche of Patagonia.

Just a short look in the german version of Wikipedia.

Roland

Tim Simmons · 3rd May 2016, 06:41 PM

Thanks Roland still leaves me in the dark. I do not think that this is a flight weapon. I think it is more of a mace though yes you could let go of it. I am really keen to get my hands on it 27 inches long. It is going to take a few weeks.

kronckew · 3rd May 2016, 08:12 PM

at 27 in. i'd not want to be flailing it around trying to hit someone else as the someone it is likely to hit is yourself. maybe if it had been on the end of a pole, but it doesn't look like that. bit like the european 'morning star' spiked ball on a chain normally attached to a handle long eough to keep the business end away from the weilder. short handled ones do exists - probably cut down for convenient display & never thereafter used in battle. i think we discussed that some time past...

slinging it about and throwing it makes more sense, especially if you had more. probably better for small game hunting where the target isn't fighting back throwing more stuff at you.

Robert · 3rd May 2016, 08:24 PM

I believe that you are both correct in your views on this piece and that it could have possibly been meant to be used as both a mace and as a sling. The grip area at the end of the cord is not permanently formed into looped so it could be easily wrapped around the hand when being swung as a mace or after being swung around in a circular motion could be let slip to be thrown in the same manner as a bolo. JMHO

Tim Simmons · 3rd May 2016, 09:00 PM

Like a lot of unusual weapons use could depend on skill, like learning from the age of a small child?

Tim Simmons · 4th May 2016, 07:35 AM

A ball and chain weapon, flail. Made without metal and used in the manner of the many forms of ball and chain.

colin henshaw · 5th May 2016, 10:27 AM

Nice piece. Unusual, I like it. The closest reference I can find is as in this drawing from the 1910 British Museum catalogue. Described as "Bolas with stone weight, Argentine". Most likely a missile weapon rather than a club, I would think.

However, star-shaped stones were used as mace heads in South America in the historic period.

stekemest · 5th May 2016, 06:24 PM

Mace heads were actually sometimes re-used as bolas in post-hispanic times. There are some examples of Inca bronze maces used that way, one in the Museo Arqueologico in Cusco.

Tim Simmons · 5th May 2016, 06:37 PM

It would work well as a hunting weapon used as a missile. Depending on how it is held and swung ie held and wrapped around the wrist or swung in a figure of eight fashion could well be used as a mace.

stekemest · 5th May 2016, 06:45 PM

As far as I know, those star shaped heads were nearly exclusively used as heads on shafted maces, not as bolas, so I think it was remounted when those ancient weapons of warfare were not needed anymore (but bolas still used for hunting). Unfortunately, there is no comprehensive study of stone mace heads to my knowledge, so it is hard to date this piece. Probably Inca as older mace heads often have more than six spikes.

Tim Simmons · 5th May 2016, 07:10 PM

I do not think there is a hole in the stone if you look closely. It is a modern peasant weapon from the early 20th century.

Nick Wardigo · 5th May 2016, 08:28 PM

To my eyes, it looks like the center of the head is covered by a piece of leather, so I don't think you can tell if it has a hole or not.

I know almost nothing about these things, but it looks like it has genuine age. I like it a lot.

Please take my largely-ignorant opinion with a grain of salt, but I would be surprised if this was NOT meant to be thrown. If you're just swinging this thing and, God forbid, actually make contact with something (like an opponent's skull), I don't see what's stopping it from being deflected back into your own face. As has been previously stated, this danger is mitigated with a morning star by attaching the chain or cord to the end of a handle that is longer than the cord, itself. On the other hand, the construction of this piece seems simple enough that I can imagine a hunter or warrior throwing this and not being too upset, if he couldn't retrieve it for some reason.

Another question...are you sure the head is made of stone? Just looking at the color and texture, I wouldn't be surprised to learn this was a heavily-patinated piece of iron.

Tim Simmons · 5th May 2016, 10:20 PM

I agree that breaking the rythem of a swing could be dangerous. That would be the same for other weapons. I think the stone is a disc that has been cut into making a star shape. Until I have it it is hard to tell if it is iron or stone. It was sold as stone.

Ferguson · 6th May 2016, 02:10 AM

I don't think it is a stone head. Looks like iron or steel. I think I see grinder marks on the V-shaped cut outs. Could be wrong though.

Steve

Robert · 6th May 2016, 06:29 AM

Maybe these might help.

RobertGuy · 6th May 2016, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferguson

I don't think it is a stone head.
Steve

Time for a magnet test?

Tim Simmons · 6th May 2016, 12:34 PM

It is on it's way but will take time. I have started to find a little more on bolas of this type. The single weight version is Bola Perdida and is said to be mainly used against humans. Some sites suggest that stone {if it is stone? one would hope a seller could tell the difference} bola tend to be old. There is the possibility that as mine is a complicated shape rather than a simple ball it might be old and have served more than one users life?

This link to the Pitt-Rivers Oxford UK is the only reference to its use as a weapon of war I have found so far.

http://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/rpr/index.ph...9455vol2p3982/

Which introduces me to a new area of interest, early colonial ethinc conflict in South America.

The Thomas Falkner mentioned in the Pitt-Rivers link was a Jesuit missionary in Argentina and surrounding countries not just a traveler. 1707-1784.

More pics any help??

It is a matter of skill. Pretty girls and boots.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AldeVzGBh1Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqU6dubeUng

Tim Simmons · 17th May 2016, 10:27 AM

At last here. Without doubt it is a weapon against people. It is not antique these are still used today in the very rural mountain areas. There is some wear on the handle loop. Some steel wire has been used in the construction. It is the length of my arm from the finger tips to arm socket. I am surprised how easy it is to swing. I have not done any fancy swings for fear of fracturing my skull.

Nick Wardigo · 17th May 2016, 04:34 PM

It's a bit larger than I expected (there wasn't anything to give me a sense of scale in the other photos). Congratulations again on finding a very nice piece.

Now that it's in hand, is the head made of stone or iron? Can you tell if there's a hole running through the head, hidden under the leather covering?

I understand your conviction that the overall construction is "not antique," probably based on the steel wire and condition of the leather. But, I'm curious if you think the head might be recycled from a much older weapon.

Tim Simmons · 17th May 2016, 05:16 PM

Solid stone no hole 481g or 1lb 1oz. So swinging fast the force would be considerable. I have weapons with wire on them from the turn of the 19th - 20th century. Also old hide and leather in very good condition so there might be some age . The Peruvian Andes high up the environment is cold and dry I believe, which would be good conditions for organic materials, as opposed to wet and warm.

3rd May 2016, 03:14 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Information needed Peru bolas weapon This caught my eye and it fits the way my collection is focused, cheap too. The seller calls it a Huaybinto. I have not been able to find any proper information on this type of short weapon bolas on the net. Just a few general comments stating it is a mountain peasants weapon which I know. It does not look like a tourist thing to me. It might have some age to it? Are they still in use today? or replaced by shot guns? Is life in the Peruvian mountains any thing like life in areas PNG where weapons traditional and modern are part of life and local violence? For once good simple pictures from a seller. Some members might have information to hand? I think it looks pretty good. Attached Images

5th May 2016, 10:27 AM	#8
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Nice piece. Unusual, I like it. The closest reference I can find is as in this drawing from the 1910 British Museum catalogue. Described as "Bolas with stone weight, Argentine". Most likely a missile weapon rather than a club, I would think. However, star-shaped stones were used as mace heads in South America in the historic period. Attached Images

6th May 2016, 06:29 AM	#16
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Maybe these might help. Attached Images

6th May 2016, 12:34 PM	#18
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	It is on it's way but will take time. I have started to find a little more on bolas of this type. The single weight version is Bola Perdida and is said to be mainly used against humans. Some sites suggest that stone {if it is stone? one would hope a seller could tell the difference} bola tend to be old. There is the possibility that as mine is a complicated shape rather than a simple ball it might be old and have served more than one users life? This link to the Pitt-Rivers Oxford UK is the only reference to its use as a weapon of war I have found so far. http://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/rpr/index.ph...9455vol2p3982/ Which introduces me to a new area of interest, early colonial ethinc conflict in South America. The Thomas Falkner mentioned in the Pitt-Rivers link was a Jesuit missionary in Argentina and surrounding countries not just a traveler. 1707-1784. More pics any help?? It is a matter of skill. Pretty girls and boots. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AldeVzGBh1Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqU6dubeUng Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 6th May 2016 at 03:26 PM.

17th May 2016, 10:27 AM	#19
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	At last here. Without doubt it is a weapon against people. It is not antique these are still used today in the very rural mountain areas. There is some wear on the handle loop. Some steel wire has been used in the construction. It is the length of my arm from the finger tips to arm socket. I am surprised how easy it is to swing. I have not done any fancy swings for fear of fracturing my skull. Attached Images

3rd May 2016, 03:42 PM	#2
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	I think this is a weapon of war, a Bola Perdida ("lost bullet"), a slingshot with a fixed sling. Used for example by the Tehuelche of Patagonia. Just a short look in the german version of Wikipedia. Roland

3rd May 2016, 06:41 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Thanks Roland still leaves me in the dark. I do not think that this is a flight weapon. I think it is more of a mace though yes you could let go of it. I am really keen to get my hands on it 27 inches long. It is going to take a few weeks.

3rd May 2016, 08:12 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	at 27 in. i'd not want to be flailing it around trying to hit someone else as the someone it is likely to hit is yourself. maybe if it had been on the end of a pole, but it doesn't look like that. bit like the european 'morning star' spiked ball on a chain normally attached to a handle long eough to keep the business end away from the weilder. short handled ones do exists - probably cut down for convenient display & never thereafter used in battle. i think we discussed that some time past... slinging it about and throwing it makes more sense, especially if you had more. probably better for small game hunting where the target isn't fighting back throwing more stuff at you.

3rd May 2016, 08:24 PM	#5
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I believe that you are both correct in your views on this piece and that it could have possibly been meant to be used as both a mace and as a sling. The grip area at the end of the cord is not permanently formed into looped so it could be easily wrapped around the hand when being swung as a mace or after being swung around in a circular motion could be let slip to be thrown in the same manner as a bolo. JMHO

3rd May 2016, 09:00 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Like a lot of unusual weapons use could depend on skill, like learning from the age of a small child?

4th May 2016, 07:35 AM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	A ball and chain weapon, flail. Made without metal and used in the manner of the many forms of ball and chain.

5th May 2016, 06:24 PM	#9
stekemest Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 182	Mace heads were actually sometimes re-used as bolas in post-hispanic times. There are some examples of Inca bronze maces used that way, one in the Museo Arqueologico in Cusco.

5th May 2016, 06:37 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	It would work well as a hunting weapon used as a missile. Depending on how it is held and swung ie held and wrapped around the wrist or swung in a figure of eight fashion could well be used as a mace.

5th May 2016, 06:45 PM	#11
stekemest Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 182	As far as I know, those star shaped heads were nearly exclusively used as heads on shafted maces, not as bolas, so I think it was remounted when those ancient weapons of warfare were not needed anymore (but bolas still used for hunting). Unfortunately, there is no comprehensive study of stone mace heads to my knowledge, so it is hard to date this piece. Probably Inca as older mace heads often have more than six spikes.

5th May 2016, 07:10 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I do not think there is a hole in the stone if you look closely. It is a modern peasant weapon from the early 20th century.

5th May 2016, 08:28 PM	#13
Nick Wardigo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 54	To my eyes, it looks like the center of the head is covered by a piece of leather, so I don't think you can tell if it has a hole or not. I know almost nothing about these things, but it looks like it has genuine age. I like it a lot. Please take my largely-ignorant opinion with a grain of salt, but I would be surprised if this was NOT meant to be thrown. If you're just swinging this thing and, God forbid, actually make contact with something (like an opponent's skull), I don't see what's stopping it from being deflected back into your own face. As has been previously stated, this danger is mitigated with a morning star by attaching the chain or cord to the end of a handle that is longer than the cord, itself. On the other hand, the construction of this piece seems simple enough that I can imagine a hunter or warrior throwing this and not being too upset, if he couldn't retrieve it for some reason. Another question...are you sure the head is made of stone? Just looking at the color and texture, I wouldn't be surprised to learn this was a heavily-patinated piece of iron.

5th May 2016, 10:20 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I agree that breaking the rythem of a swing could be dangerous. That would be the same for other weapons. I think the stone is a disc that has been cut into making a star shape. Until I have it it is hard to tell if it is iron or stone. It was sold as stone.

6th May 2016, 02:10 AM	#15
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	I don't think it is a stone head. Looks like iron or steel. I think I see grinder marks on the V-shaped cut outs. Could be wrong though. Steve

17th May 2016, 04:34 PM	#20
Nick Wardigo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 54	It's a bit larger than I expected (there wasn't anything to give me a sense of scale in the other photos). Congratulations again on finding a very nice piece. Now that it's in hand, is the head made of stone or iron? Can you tell if there's a hole running through the head, hidden under the leather covering? I understand your conviction that the overall construction is "not antique," probably based on the steel wire and condition of the leather. But, I'm curious if you think the head might be recycled from a much older weapon.

17th May 2016, 05:16 PM	#21
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Solid stone no hole 481g or 1lb 1oz. So swinging fast the force would be considerable. I have weapons with wire on them from the turn of the 19th - 20th century. Also old hide and leather in very good condition so there might be some age . The Peruvian Andes high up the environment is cold and dry I believe, which would be good conditions for organic materials, as opposed to wet and warm.