British ribbed iron grip brass sword anomaly

[Jim McDougall]

These ribbed iron grip brass swords seem to fall into a category of their own as possibly cutlass, artillery swords, police or militia swords which may be from period 1800-50 but without specific classification.

They have a resemblance to these type swords which were used by British coast guard, possibly dockyard security forces, and by that virtue seem to perhaps have fallen into the police and militia category. Examples like this, without langet, have been known to Dorset militia c.1800, during the ongoing concerns of 1790s of French invasion.

As per Robson (1975, p.153) there were mountain artillery units which began around 1850 with the Hazara Mountain Train, followed by the Peshawar Mountain Train in 1853. These were units who packed small howitzer screw guns which were dismantled on mules. It is unknown what type swords they carried but noted SHORT curved ones with brass hilts.

In 1896 there was an official pattern made with similar ribbed iron grip which is why I thought perhaps these stirrup hilt types of early 19th c. might have been prototypes.

The British army Royal Horse Artillery had no permanent mountain batteries until 1889. Interestingly, the RHA typically used light cavalry sabers, of M1796 pattern on course. When the M1821 came out, the changeover was remarkably slow, probably even more so in these remote units in the Raj.

I am wondering perhaps if this might be one of a number of the early iron ribbed hilts from early in the century with intent for maritime, militia or police use, which ended up going to one of these mountain troops, and in accord with RHA custom, mounted with M1796 Lt. cavalry blade.

No markings on hilt or blade.

To clarify, the images are of my own example.........the page is from Robson's book, and the images noted are not shown. Those images are of the M1821 type hilt and the 1896 form, which are not relevant to this type in this case.

[M ELEY]

Hello Jim. I have also questioned these type swords, which some have claimed have a maritime connection. Gilkerson pictured a similar example in 'Boarders Away Volume I' and also showed a wooden storage locker containing a large grouping of a similar sword type listed as possibly naval in Volume II. Here's an interesting example with a m1804 cutlass blade and a fascinating marking on it ('Dorset Mila' ) with GR markings. This iron-ribbed hilt with brass knuckle bow seems to be a 'universal soldier' type and I suspect had multiple uses by different military forces-

https://www.ima-usa.com/products/ori...nt=26168184901

[Radboud]

On a side note, I wouldn’t trust anything IMA writes, they have always been very ‘creative’ with their descriptions.

[Radboud]

I agree with M Eley, these are likely a non-military type (as in not an Army / Navy pattern) that were used by a multitude of para-military organisations.

The Royal Armouries have in their collection a case of weapons that features muskets with bayonets, pistols and sabres that are a close resemblance to this type, made by Woolley & Sargent and Co.

https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ect-47163.html

I have read previously that these were also sold to property owners to equip their security with, alas I can’t find the source.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Radboud

On a side note, I wouldn’t trust anything IMA writes, they have always been very ‘creative’ with their descriptions.

I think that in most cases knowledgeable readers of sales oriented descriptions in most such venues know to keep well and by regarding same. Typically the image of the weapon is more the key to further research, which may or may not corroborate material in these descriptions.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Hello Jim. I have also questioned these type swords, which some have claimed have a maritime connection. Gilkerson pictured a similar example in 'Boarders Away Volume I' and also showed a wooden storage locker containing a large grouping of a similar sword type listed as possibly naval in Volume II. Here's an interesting example with a m1804 cutlass blade and a fascinating marking on it ('Dorset Mila' ) with GR markings. This iron-ribbed hilt with brass knuckle bow seems to be a 'universal soldier' type and I suspect had multiple uses by different military forces-

https://www.ima-usa.com/products/ori...nt=26168184901

Thank you Capn, glad to have you here!!! Just as seen in Gilkerson, it is hard to see these cast iron ribbed grip and brass guard types as anything but 'maritime' but as seen they seem to have been moved about quite a bit in different contexts. It is reasonable to expect that these swords might be used in militia units much as they were in private security groups and police settings.

Radboud, thank you for the entry on these assemblies of weapons which were apparently cased for these kinds of supply to private firms for guard purposes.
The company of James Wooley and William Sargent seem to have paired using that name in several date periods; 1815-17, 1821-25 and 1826-31, all at 74 Edmund st. It seems that other partners came and went with them in these periods, but arms marked Wooley & Sargent would be in the periods noted.

Apparently there was another variant of this hilt with a kind of added bar to the guard, same ribbed grip to the Medical Staff Corps as Pattern 1861.
These kinds of swords were similar to Coast Guard types, and again to infantry drummers 1822-1856 (Robson, 1975, p.163).

It seems that when the infantry drummers got a new type sword pattern in 1856, the existing swords became surplus and were then given to the medical corps.

It would appear that much of the conundrum with these distinctly recognizable iron rib grip, brass hilt swords is that they seem to be rather 'off reckoning' types outside regulation patterns which were present over decades from early years of 19th c. Their presence within military corps and special units as well as maritime as well as private and civil services renders them pretty hard to classify specifically.

I suppose in many, if not most cases, it will suffice to place them in the 'of the type' category when aligning them with discussion of certain of the many contexts they have been associated with.

[werecow]

It seems somewhat odd that maritime users in particular would choose a rust-prone steel grip as opposed to brass, particularly since the guard is brass. Was that a matter of cost, taste, or something else?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by werecow

It seems somewhat odd that maritime users in particular would choose a rust-prone steel grip as opposed to brass, particularly since the guard is brass. Was that a matter of cost, taste, or something else?

It was easy to make, cheap and heavily japanned (painted black). Brass was of course also easy to cast and even more durable as far as rusting issues.

[M ELEY]

It seems somewhat odd that maritime users in particular would choose a rust-prone steel grip as opposed to brass, particularly since the guard is brass. Was that a matter of cost, taste, or something else?
Today 07:31 AM

As Jim pointed out, these types of corrugated/ribbed iron grips (found on a multitude of cutlasses of the period (m1804s and others) were japanned/painted with black primer.

As Jim pointed out, these swords seem to have made the rounds! In Annis' 'Naval Swords', we see that East India Dock Co sword with the corrugated iron grip just like these other examples. It makes sense that these para-military type swords would have appealed to the maritime market (i.e. private purchase), as they were cheap to make and simple in their construction. I wouldn't mind adding one to my collection if it at least had a tentative possible use of being naval (as the example I listed above, with the straight-bladed m1804 blade).

Radboud, thanks for posting that weapons locker. That was indeed the one shown in Gilkerson's volume.