19thc Chinese naval dao - cutlass ??

[Maj-Biffy Snodgrass]

Hello all, this is my first post here so please BEAR WITH me as I may have made a few mistakes.

I picked up this old dao here some time ago in Uk, scabbard is a bit scruffy but eventually I will get around to restoring it, other than that the old dao which I suspect is likely south China mid to late 19thc is looking good after a clean up compared to how it was when purchased in a rough old state.
The hilt mounts are iron, something as yet I have not seen the on daos of the same seafaring ?? cutlass style sword before, most seem to have brass or bronze alloy hilts, this one is certainly well made.
Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Snody

[Sajen]

Hi Snody,

Very interesting sword, for sure Chinese and belonging to the great dao family.
It would be interesting to read comments from members who are more knowledgeable than I am.

Regards,
Detlef

[Maj-Biffy Snodgrass]

Hi Detlef, thanks , I need to brush up on my pics a little but at least was able to post for something here for the first time, I doubt the dao is posh enough for most Chinese sword collectors but I like it, it is a good honest 19thc piece, a real worker that appears to have seen some action to.
I will restore the scabbard myself . Snody

[werecow]

Interesting sword. Reminds me a lot of Vietnamese guoms as well.

[Maj-Biffy Snodgrass]

Hi werecow and thanks for your input, for me though having had many Vietnamese swords over many years this is not finished in the way I would expect to see for Vietnam, most guom which it does ''sort of'' resemble a little have a certain type of finish on the blades surface due to the type of scraper the Vietnamese use when finishing blades, this for me is more Chinese , I will have to get around to etching it and see what pops, it would likely reveal a lot about the origin, when I do etch I will post better pics. Snody

[M ELEY]

Very nice dao! While not an expert on Chinese weapons, I know from my naval collecting that these types are often referred to as 'river pirate' swords, which might explain why you heard that they were 'naval'. As their guard is indeed cutlass-like, it stands to reason that a sword of this type would be popular on watercraft, where melee fighting was in close quarters and the curved guard served to both deflect blows towards the hand and also to possibly catch an opponent's blade, much as a main gauche does in fencing.

The South China Sea was rife with pirates living in the many rivers and waterways of that region. Their numbers easily dwarfed the size of the country's actual naval forces. It is interesting to note that piracy in these regions were seasonal! In times when the fishing industry was doing well, the fishermen led honest lives, but during the off-season, the locals would often 'put on a different hat' and go a-pirating! Any junk could easily be converted into a menacing ship, just add some swords such as yours and a few swivel guns/lantaka from Macao and you are all set!

Here's an interesting article on these sword types-

https://chinesemartialstudies.com/20...-land-and-sea/

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Maj-Biffy Snodgrass

Hi werecow and thanks for your input, for me though having had many Vietnamese swords over many years this is not finished in the way I would expect to see for Vietnam, most guom which it does ''sort of'' resemble a little have a certain type of finish on the blades surface due to the type of scraper the Vietnamese use when finishing blades, this for me is more Chinese , I will have to get around to etching it and see what pops, it would likely reveal a lot about the origin, when I do etch I will post better pics. Snody

Yes, did not mean to suggest that this was Vietnamese. Just pointing out a (to me, as a beginner) interesting similarity between the types.

[Maj-Biffy Snodgrass]

Much thanks for all your views everyone who has commented so far.

Werecow, you are correct in your observations, it is somewhat like a Viet guom but a bit more Chunky than any I have ever had, it is likely south Chinese so very close to Nam though.
All help and observations are duly noted, and much thanks to all again, I am still learning how to use this forum so bear with me please and do not take what may appears as a SHARPNESS of tongue in my answers the wrong way, I can assure you I mean no offence and it really is down to the way express myself in writing.

M Eley, much thanks also for your ideas, the link supplied I have seen many times, interesting stuff, but so far nothing like this sword appears anywhere there that I have seen as yet, the pirate connection is possible, but I go more with the idea of naval police or coastal guard as the sword definitely has a military or naval look to it and its scabbard which was originally red with white top and bottom section as can be seen from the old paint on the leather, in the coming winter I will try to get round to restoring the leather scabbard and returning it to as close as I can get it to the original.
It also might be good to add that the guard although not over thick I would say is hardened steel and sprung, so whoever made the sword knew his job well.
Thanks again to all. Snody

[M ELEY]

A shorter version of what I'm talking about-

https://www.faganarms.com/products/c...d-19th-century

https://www.ashokaarts.com/regions-t...-19th-century/

[Maj-Biffy Snodgrass]

Yes this is the typical hudiedao type I have had quite a few of in the past in both links, I have had pairs and also singles in various sizes, but they are a very different animal to the sword I have here which is much longer and more like the 19thc black military dao's in size, for me this is more like a cutlass than the type we know as hudiedao. Snody

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Maj-Biffy Snodgrass

Much thanks for all your views everyone who has commented so far.

Werecow, you are correct in your observations, it is somewhat like a Viet guom but a bit more Chunky than any I have ever had, it is likely south Chinese so very close to Nam though.
All help and observations are duly noted, and much thanks to all again, I am still learning how to use this forum so bear with me please and do not take what may appears as a SHARPNESS of tongue in my answers the wrong way, I can assure you I mean no offence and it really is down to the way express myself in writing.

I certainly did not take any offense. Productive discussion is a good thing. I am still somewhat new to sword collecting so I may speak a lot of nonsense or point out things that are obvious to more experienced collectors as if they are a revelation to me.

[Maj-Biffy Snodgrass]

M Eley, thanks for the clarification and links, but I certainly would not take much of what either of these companies in the links provided seriously when it comes to Asian edged weapons, descriptions origins age and uses etc, the first company often get things very very wrong, the second also but to a lesser extent.
Having been in the antique edged weapons world for over 30 years I have had many Chinese and other Asian types but have learned to take a lot of the old terms for such swords with a pinch of salt, especially when the Term RIVER PIRATE is used.
The common theory that these swords known as Hudiedao used in pairs or singles were all river pirates swords is untrue, utter hogwash, most were in fact local militia military, naval etc, yet still these companies use the name RIVER PIRATE and perpetuate the common western theory about such swords, likely to make them more interesting to buyers by using the PIRATE term, or perhaps due to lack of real knowledge of the sword type .

The link you first sent explains this very well, no doubt pirates on the south China seas and rivers throughout south China used many different types of bladed weapons during and pre 19thc but the sword in question here is certainly no hudiedao, it is a dao '' sword ''with guard and blade trap mechanism so as I see it even though it is quite obviously a southern type dao I see no relationship to the type of hudiedao in either of the links you sent.

the size of my dao is in 31 inches long with a 25 inch blade, a sword rather than a large knife, as yet I have never encountered a hudiedao in this size.

The above said, I certainly did not start this post to get into as long lasting debate about different types of Chinese PIRATES swords, river pirate naval or other, I merely wanted to show the sword for those who have interest in such weapons.
I will try to get around to polishing and etching it after the weekend, will then show a few better pics of it here, I am hoping it will show something interesting, often simple Chinese swords can have very well constructed blades, I am hoping this one does . Snody

[Maj-Biffy Snodgrass]

I have always been one to hold with the old saying ''we live and learn'', and that there are no experts in anything, but there are those who have lived and learned and are willing to pass on good knowledge , I like to think life still teaches me something every hour of every new day, and it certainly does , so live and learn !!, there are certainly plenty of experienced people on the forum to learn from. . snody

[Jim McDougall]

This is an interesting sword, and it would be hard to assert any specific classification or even period for that matter. The character of the hilt and distinctive down turned quillon and D guard knucklebow suggest Chinese swords/knives that were common among the 'river pirates' as Capn Mark has noted.
These were actually Chinese martial artists who were in effect acting as body guards and security forces in commerce movement in trade networks via the waterways into the ports. In the endless glossary of 'collectors terms' many sets of paired knives often in this hilt style are termed 'butterfly knives'.

While this simple hilt form was not confined to these, the general form was widely applied to Chinese knives and swords from late 17th century into the 20th, so again, hard to confine classification specifically.

These Chinese martial artists who were as noted, often part of companies or agencies , much in the manner of 'privateers', in times of unemployment they resorted to 'private enterprise' (= piracy).

Just as with pirates in the broad sense, they often 'confiscated' weapons along with materials, so the spectrum of weapons forms used by them is pretty much anybody's guess without exact provenance.

It seems most Chinese edged weapons are deemed of the "Boxer Rebellion" period in 1900, however many could be later as US presence was well known especially in the rivers into 1920s (Steve McQueen, "The Sand Pebbles").

I have an example of a ring pommel 'da dao' from the 'Eight Trigram Rebellion' (1814) which shows the general form of these kinds of swords used by martial artists then, and well through the 19th c. At the time of the 'Boxer Rebellion' (=martial artists) there were constant performances by martial artists intended to instill fear in the western intruders.

A panoply of these forms from the 2009 discussion we had here on 'butterfly knives' with Gav Nugent. The image of the Chinese vessels casually known by the west as 'junks'.
One of the street performances noted, many during Boxer times were much more graphic and terrifying.
My BaGwa Da Dao with the Eight Trigram device, also with patriotic White Lotus type invocations including 'kill demons' etc.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by werecow

I certainly did not take any offense. Productive discussion is a good thing. I am still somewhat new to sword collecting so I may speak a lot of nonsense or point out things that are obvious to more experienced collectors as if they are a revelation to me.

Well said! no need to elaborate though, as we have always said here, we all learn together here, and sensitivity is simply counter productive. I hope I never stop learning here, and sharing things learned here with other members over two decades now in these great discussions(as shown in my last entry).
Onward!

[Maj-Biffy Snodgrass]

Hi Jim, thanks for your input, very interesting large ba gua dao, I am pretty up on Chinese swords and history having had many over many years in trade and collecting, have also learned a lot here even though I chose not to join for many many years but now having joined I think I have enough knowledge of a certain region to be able to pass on some knowledge but I certainly not an expert on Chinese swords by a long shot.
As mentioned before I have had the paired hudiedao types and singles of various sizes, also many other types over the years including the hudiedao hook blade types, but this one I have now is not typical of the type which are often referred to as the Hudiedao, this is a full sword, not a large knife for use in close quarter, it is much more like the size of your dao shown in your pics, which is why I referred to it as a cutlass type sword rather than a single Hudiedao.

Here is another I have with straight blade and the type guard often seen on 19thc boxer dadao's and later ones up to ww2, this one is likely later 19thc, but unusually this one is straight and single edged blade, it has a red lacquered crotchet cord type hilt wrap, unusual for its type as most are cloth wrapped cord, the guard I did think was possibly marked but it likely is just pareidolia on my part for thinking it, if it is a mark it is very corroded and un readable.
The green masking tape on the hilt ring is holding in a small piece of the hilt wrap that was loose which I have now restored.

Thanks again for your input, although I don't hold with the idea that all hudiedao were used by pirates river or seafaring, some maybe have been so used by them, but I think Pirates river or seafaring would have used many different types of bladed weapon, martial artists to, there were many styles of martial art that had many different types of swords attached to the different styles.
There are also references to Chinese pirates of the south China seas favouring the Borneo and Sarawak mandau as a weapon of choice, likely also because they are short enough for close quarter IN fighting. Snody

[kronckew]

I've got a similar sword, the upper guard qillion has been bent up a bit.

discussed HERE

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Maj-Biffy Snodgrass

I have always been one to hold with the old saying ''we live and learn'', and that there are no experts in anything, but there are those who have lived and learned and are willing to pass on good knowledge , I like to think life still teaches me something every hour of every new day, and it certainly does , so live and learn !!, there are certainly plenty of experienced people on the forum to learn from. . snody

AMEN!

[kronckew]

On advice of a friend, I've bent the upper guard quillion forward back in a more forward position; I also note that the photos above lack scale, the grip is comfortably two-handed at 7 in., and the 28.75 in. blade is heavy (and very sharp). It is not a nimble cutlass, it's a brutal hacker.

[Maj-Biffy Snodgrass]

Hi Wayne, well you certainly fixed that and did a fine job of it, congratulations.
In my own estimation and I am by far NOT an expert I would be looking towards Vietnam for origin and age 19thc for your sword, the finish on the blade certainly has that tell tale finish seen on many Vietnam - Indo China regional swords, perhaps even what were the Cham regions, I like it, nice honest sword indeed.. Snody

[Maj-Biffy Snodgrass]

[Maj-Biffy Snodgrass]

Chinese police officers employed by Russians pre 1911.

Looking closely at the old pic here it appears the Chinese police used swords very much like the one I have shown here. Snody