Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 29th April 2006, 10:18 PM   #1
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
Exclamation Whoa ! Moro

Someone paid a handsome sum for these two basket cases !
Don't forget to add a 22.5% Buyers premium !

http://tinyurl.com/e9zmj
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2006, 11:01 PM   #2
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

Rick,
Why do you call them "basket cases"?
What are the problems with them?
As you see, I still need handholding in the Moroland
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2006, 11:29 PM   #3
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
Thumbs down

The ivory junggayan pommel is broken ; the other sword is missing its pommel . The blade with the ivory pommel looks okay but the other one IMO only looks so-so .

So this bidder paid well over $1,300.00 for two damaged krisses with no scabbards plus 5% sales tax . The only special thing about this pair , the ivory junggayan pommel , is broken and would be a tough and expensive repair .
I don't think these two would fetch this price (including buyers premium ) on ebay .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th April 2006, 12:04 AM   #4
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,194
Default

Agree completely Rick. Without the broken piece of ivory (nowhere in sight) it would be a tough task to recreate the junggayan hilt. What's left of it looks good, but a big chunk is missing. That would be an expensive repair. The second one is a very ordinary Mindanao kris from c. 1900 that needs a complete redo of the hilt wrap. Not a hard repair, but also not a very valuable sword.

At that price I can only assume that the buyer thought he could repair the ivory hilt relatively easily -- good luck with that!

Ian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
The ivory junggayan pommel is broken ; the other sword is missing its pommel . The blade with the ivory pommel looks okay but the other one IMO only looks so-so .

So this bidder paid well over $1,300.00 for two damaged krisses with no scabbards plus 5% sales tax . The only special thing about this pair , the ivory junggayan pommel , is broken and would be a tough and expensive repair .
I don't think these two would fetch this price (including buyers premium ) on ebay .
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th April 2006, 01:44 AM   #5
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
Thumbs down

Yep !
Whoever that was hosed himself to the tune of almost $1,400.00 .
I noticed all the sane people dropped out at about $600.00 ; even then too much .

This auction house 'Buyer's Premium' stuff is getting way out of hand lately ; I'm surprised ebay hasn't had an effect on decreasing it .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th April 2006, 02:30 AM   #6
BluErf
Member
 
BluErf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,180
Default

The ivory pommel kris has an impressive and nice sor-soran, with well-defined greneng which looks like to be of a more uncommon form. The pommel itself shows a good level of sophistication judging from what's left of it, and the shallow grooves and lines on it. I noticed that the baca-baca looks old and very sturdy. Perhaps the seller knows of someone who can restore the lost crown on the kakatua pommel, and perhaps make a sheath for it. Maybe that explains why he would pay so much for it.

On another related subject - there has been a trend of person or persons who throw in irrationally high bids on kerises on ebay, and in some cases, not paying for the winning bids at all. This is not good. Hopefully the person or persons behind these irrational bidding would stop because it does not benefit anyone, including themselves.
BluErf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th April 2006, 02:42 AM   #7
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by BluErf
The ivory pommel kris has an impressive and nice sor-soran, with well-defined greneng which looks like to be of a more uncommon form. The pommel itself shows a good level of sophistication judging from what's left of it, and the shallow grooves and lines on it. I noticed that the baca-baca looks old and very sturdy. Perhaps the seller knows of someone who can restore the lost crown on the kakatua pommel, and perhaps make a sheath for it. Maybe that explains why he would pay so much for it.

On another related subject - there has been a trend of person or persons who throw in irrationally high bids on kerises on ebay, and in some cases, not paying for the winning bids at all. This is not good. Hopefully the person or persons behind these irrational bidding would stop because it does not benefit anyone, including themselves.
Possibly Kai wee ; I find myself more impressed by the greneng on that blade ; at any rate it seems to be quality for sure and maybe the floor bidder could see a core pattern in the blade ... but even the part of the pommel that's left is damaged . One would be almost better off having an entirely new one carved . I shudder to think what that would cost .

From my experience most of the Moro kris available come out of the States because of the Span Am and Moro Wars . These two look to have had a hard life .

I always wonder what things would be like today if Gen'l Pershing's order had not been implemented .

As to the horse's rear end that has been playing games on ebay .. what a shame !
I wonder if it's another Dealer or a Prankster .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th April 2006, 04:03 AM   #8
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

Or the seller....
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th April 2006, 10:02 AM   #9
panday
Member
 
panday's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 50
Default


Last edited by panday; 30th April 2006 at 02:52 PM.
panday is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th April 2006, 10:26 AM   #10
panday
Member
 
panday's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 50
Default

Ebay bidding wars now a days is so extream, and it's getting worse day by day! you got'ta push your self sometimes to get what you want, otherwise, you'll get dust

When I bid, I make sure that I have the capacity to sustain that responsibility when it comes back at me, even to the max. As they say, good stuff are priceless! so eh! don't blame this guys if they want to add this priceless pieces on there collections. . . .blame the bug that bit them
panday is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th April 2006, 12:14 PM   #11
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,730
Default

yeah, i was watching the live auction on that one.

going back to the kris, is it even possible to fix the broken part of the pommel without it looking ovbious?
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th April 2006, 02:24 PM   #12
nechesh
Member
 
nechesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 940
Default

You know, i think that the ivory pommel kris is a fine looking weapon even with the damage.....but i think i wouldn't be willing to pay more than half that price for it. If it were mine i don't think i would try to restore such damage. I think it would be really difficult to make it look right without the original piece.
nechesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th April 2006, 02:35 PM   #13
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,194
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spunjer
going back to the kris, is it even possible to fix the broken part of the pommel without it looking ovbious?
Battara might be able to give us some insight on this. But it looks a really difficult repair to me. To create a decent joint it would probably be necessary to trim more off what is left. Matching the grain of the new ivory with the old, and continuing the carved lines on the added piece would seem a major challenge. And new ivory would look odd on this old piece. A whole new ivory hilt would probably be necessary IMO. Finding an expert ivory carver for the old repair or a new piece would be a big challenge too.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th April 2006, 03:33 PM   #14
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nechesh
You know, i think that the ivory pommel kris is a fine looking weapon even with the damage.....but i think i wouldn't be willing to pay more than half that price for it. If it were mine i don't think i would try to restore such damage. I think it would be really difficult to make it look right without the original piece.
I hear what you're saying Nechesh ; I might have paid $3-$400.00 for it but when I start to think that way this picture always pops into my mind .
Attached Images
 
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th April 2006, 04:19 PM   #15
BluErf
Member
 
BluErf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,180
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spunjer
yeah, i was watching the live auction on that one.

going back to the kris, is it even possible to fix the broken part of the pommel without it looking ovbious?
I think the repair will always be visible, it's only a matter of how obvious. I have seen incredibly good old repairs to wood and ivory in which the new piece fitted perfectly with the old piece, and the new piece was stained to closely match the original colour.

In my collection, I have an mid-period tajong (probably 18th century) which had suffered substantial damage to its buah pinang and one of its shoulders. One of its previous owner deemed it valuable enough to repair, and well-repaired it was. The shoulder portion was also carved to match the lines that was flowing from the main body. I think if you look intently, you can see where the repairs were.
Attached Images
 
BluErf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th April 2006, 04:22 PM   #16
BluErf
Member
 
BluErf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,180
Default

.
Attached Images
 
BluErf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th April 2006, 04:57 PM   #17
VANDOO
(deceased)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
Default

KNOWLEGABLE COLLECTORS AND ART COLLECTORS WHO DO IT FOR INVESTMENT OR TO IMPRESS PEOPLE ARE WORLDS APART. WHEN YOU SEE THE WORDS GALLERY, SOUTHBYS, OR CHRISTIES THE MAIN TARGET BUYERS GROUPS ARE THOSE WITH LOTS OF MONEY WHO WILL LISTEN TO WHAT THEY SAY A ITEM IS WORTH AND WHAT THEY PROJECT IT WILL BE WORTH SHORTLY AS A INVESTMENT. SO IT IS NOT UNUSUAL FOR SOMETHING TO SELL FOR MUCH MORE THAN WE WOULD PAY AS THEY HAVE SEEN THAT IT IS USUALLY APRAISED AT MORE THAN THEY END UP PAYING AND THEY HAVE BEEN TOLD HOW FAST THE PRICE IS RISING AND THAT IT IS A GREAT INVESTMENT INCREASING FASTER THAN GOLD, STOCKS OR ANY OTHER INVESTMENTS. IT WILL ALWAYS CONTINUE TO INCREASE BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT MAKEING ANY MORE AND THE TRIBES WILL SOON BE GONE FOREVER.

IT IS UNFORTUNATE THAT MANY OF THESE COLLECTOR/INVESTORS CARE MUCH MORE ABOUT THE FACT IT SOLD AT SOUTHBYS OR CHRISTIES ECT. AND THAT THEY THINK IT WILL MAKE THEM LOADS OF MONEY THAN THEY DO ABOUT THE OBJECTS THEY BUY. THE BUG THAT EATS THEM IS MONEY NOT THE DESIRE TO HAVE , STUDY AND PRESERVE A UNIQUE ARTEFACT OF ANOTHER TIME AND PEOPLE AS IT IS WITH US. A GOOD THING IS SOME INVESTORS MAY GET BITTEN BY THE BUG THAT BIT US ALL IN THE PROCESS AND WHEN THAT HAPPENS AND THEY GET THE KNOWLEGE AND CONECTIONS, OFTEN A TRULY GREAT COLLECTION COMES TOGETHER. WITH KNOWLEGE AND PLENTY OF CASH TO BUY ANYTHING YOU WANT YOU CAN PUT A COLLECTION TOGETHER THAT HAS ONLY THE BEST EXAMPLES. (I CAN ONLY DREAM )

IT IS VEXING TO SEE PRICES DRIVEN UP ON WHAT WE LOVE ESPECIALLY WHEN A DAMAGED ITEM BRINGS A PRICE THAT WOULD HAVE ONLY BEEN APPROPRIATE OR HIGH FOR ONE IN PERFECT CONDITION. BUT SNAKE OIL SALESMEN THESE DAYS ARE NEVER SATISFIED WITH THEIR GAINS NO MATTER WHAT PERCENT OF PROFIT THEY ARE MAKEING THEY ALWAYS WANT TO PUSH IT HIGHER.
VANDOO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th April 2006, 07:31 PM   #18
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

These comments beg for a general question:
Is it appropriate and desirable to perform extensive repair on the antiques that were damaged by age, use and (inevitably, as they are instruments of war) abuse?
I am not trying to argue one way or another, but just want your opinions:
if you get a great sword with a noticeably damaged handle and the damage is also obviously old, would you repair the damage to make it invisible even though the repair negates the history and the experience of the sword? Is it permissible to perform an extensive (and often expensive) cosmetic surgery on a weapon not in order to restore it's needed function but to superficially return it to the pristine state? Even more, would you further enhance the appearance, such as silver-cladding the handle, or attaching a junggayan handle to a great blade with an original but ordinary one?
I am not talking about actual users who put a new handle on a sword to take it to battle (that goes without saying!) but about collectors who want to have a virginally- perfect sword on the wall.

Last edited by ariel; 30th April 2006 at 08:37 PM.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th April 2006, 08:14 PM   #19
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
Smile The Opinion of a Kris/Keris Collector

Hi Ariel , just my opinion but I think this can be quite a subjective question .

In the case of the krisses under discussion I'm led to ask myself "What would the original owner do ?" ; in most cases I think that if the sword in its native environment was damaged to the point of the ivory pommel piece in question that either a repair , replacement or modification would be done . I would also think the same would apply to the kris without a pommel .

Now this may be unique to the world of keris and kris ; but the heart and soul of these weapons is the blade regardless of Indo/Malay or Moro origin .
In these cultures dress was and is replaced regularly as it aged or was damaged ; not to do so was considered disrespectful to the keris/kris itself .
Often hilts would be removed and sold if the owner hit hard times ; then a less expensive hilt would be used .
Now when these pieces wind up in Western hands *in my opinion* providing a quality repair or replacement can be done if it is in keeping with the culture .

When it comes down to it the blade is the heart and soul of the keris/kris and is deserving of honor regardless of the culture it winds up in .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th April 2006, 08:42 PM   #20
Tim Simmons
Member
 
Tim Simmons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: What is still UK
Posts: 5,806
Default

I think ariel touches on a very good point. What is restoration? Old damage can be seen as part of the objects life and may in some rare occasions add value. Repair to recent damage is problematic how far do you go? This piece presented a dilemma for me. It arrived with some damage then to rub salt into the wound I dropped it again, anyway a big chunk was missing, the damage was done!
Do I leave it looking damaged and ugly or do something about it. I hope I have taken a middle road, what I have done is no worse than the damage. I have only hinted at how it would have been, I could very easily fake it up a lot more, I shall not say how. I am hoping to the future owners, the repair will also be older, will see it just as an honest attempt to keep a lovely thing looking nice and still feel good in the hand. I have others with the same kind of damage that is old and for some reason looks so very different and acceptable.
Attached Images
   
Tim Simmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th April 2006, 10:29 PM   #21
BluErf
Member
 
BluErf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,180
Default

For me, I feel that as long as the repair/replacement follows the traditional style of where the piece comes from, it is fine. This often entails the engagement of craftsmen who are from that culture.
BluErf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th April 2006, 10:32 PM   #22
BluErf
Member
 
BluErf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,180
Default

Hey Tim, that's a great repair. Maybe you want to stain the wood to match the original wood colour? Don't worry, people would still be able to see that it was repaired.
BluErf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd May 2006, 01:55 AM   #23
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,217
Default

Ok folks, here I go (by request).

I was one of the bidders for these puppies but dropped out. I was thinking of restoring them. I do agree that the money paid is toooooo much (though I haven't got that much anyway). I was looking at repairing the way Ian had suggested. Yes, pre-ban ivory is exensive, but for the money I was willing to spend (half of what was paid?) it would have evened out (especially after selling the other one). Who ever got it will be paying more than it is worth now (especially if any restoration is done). The hardest part would be matching the grain, and that can not be done perfectly anyway. Yes some trim to the original, or certainly there will be a break line no matter what. I can live with that if it were not too obvious. I will never know now.......

The other one - new head and new wrap. (silver for me ).
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2006, 04:14 AM   #24
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,730
Default

Quote:
Ok folks, here I go (by request).

I was one of the bidders for these puppies but dropped out. I was thinking of restoring them. I do agree that the money paid is toooooo much (though I haven't got that much anyway). I was looking at repairing the way Ian had suggested. Yes, pre-ban ivory is exensive, but for the money I was willing to spend (half of what was paid?) it would have evened out (especially after selling the other one). Who ever got it will be paying more than it is worth now (especially if any restoration is done). The hardest part would be matching the grain, and that can not be done perfectly anyway. Yes some trim to the original, or certainly there will be a break line no matter what. I can live with that if it were not too obvious. I will never know now.......

The other one - new head and new wrap. (silver for me ).
how about the color? would it match? it is indeed a beautiful junggayan.
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2006, 07:59 AM   #25
D Wilke
Member
 
D Wilke's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Okinawa, JN
Posts: 22
Default Culturally correct repairs

I'll throw my own two centavos in here. I completely agree with Kris and BluErf. These blades are continually being repaired and redressed and as long as it is done in the traditional style (or better yet within the same culture by their craftsmen using traditional methods) there is no loss of value or history only an increased esthetic. Who wouldn't want a complete blade with complete dress that showed the glory or the height of that culture in their collection as opposed to one with pieces missing.

I had Hajiri build me a new scabbard for my barong and rewrap the handle with silver braid, all the materials were from Sulu and he and his Grandfather did the work. It is a much more visually stunning blade now and better represents the true Tausug craftsmanship as opposed to the tail-less colored-ribbon wrapped scabbard it came in.

That doesn't negate my preference for an intact old piece, I just usually can't finance those

Dan
D Wilke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2006, 08:29 PM   #26
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,217
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spunjer
how about the color? would it match? it is indeed a beautiful junggayan.
The color would be a little difficult, but could be carefully worked to come close to the color. The grain would be the most difficult part by far.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th June 2006, 03:35 PM   #27
Pangeran Datu
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 79
Default Kris price variation

Hi All.
I apologise if any of you think that I'm flogging a dead horse. I just wanted to find out what you thought about the huge variation in prices for pieces. There is such a wide band. Especially when it comes to ivory pommels! The prices don't seem to follow any particular logic. In my travels, I've seen the same/similar pieces vary in price from a few hundred to almost a couple of thousands. There was even a hilt (only the hilt) with ivory kakatua pommel (not the full kakatua ceremonial form) priced at several thousands.
It may be useful to, at times, have posts about what 'reasonable' prices to pay are. People may be able to use it to build personal confidence in making offers/bids.

Regards.
Pangeran Datu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th June 2006, 08:28 PM   #28
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,217
Default

Certainly eBay is not the most accurate indication of true value since it varies more than the auction houses. It would appear that several of us so far think that the pieces in question are way too high for their condition. I could see that this price for the ivory one if it had a complete pommel and scabbard, and it were in perfect condition (gold work would be a great addition ).
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th June 2006, 08:37 PM   #29
Tim Simmons
Member
 
Tim Simmons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: What is still UK
Posts: 5,806
Default

Well I am baffled, they are far from rare, have no scabbards, okay one has a nice ivory pommel nothing rare about that and the other one is damaged, or am I blind to something.
Tim Simmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th June 2006, 08:44 PM   #30
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
Smile

It is a fascinating thing to compare the prices things fetch on ebay with what a similar piece will fetch at an auction house auction with bidders on the floor .
So far in my experience ebay auctions can often be the better value plus there is no "Buyer's Premium" to tack another 15-20% on to the high bid price .

I often wonder if it is the heat of the moment on the auction floor that drives pieces to such heights whereas bidding on ebay is a solitary detached kind of experience .

I definitely would not have bid the price those fetched (unless I had a nice big chunk of ivory or two to send to Battara )
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.