small/court sword for comment and restoration tips

shayde78 · 9th September 2017, 06:37 AM

Hello forumites!

I am asking for your opinions on how best to address the fragile condition of the tip of this newly acquired smallsword/court sword. The pictures show the corrosion near the tip, and the oxidation along the entire blade. There is scrollwork along the first third, but it is hard to see, and harder to photograph.

Also, I would love to learn how to determine the country of origin for such a piece. I think it is consistent with late 1700s examples. Of course, I always have anxiety something is a reproduction, so feel free to tell me the truth if you question authenticity. As I said in a previous thread, if I got ripped off, it is merely tuition for my education.

Total length is just shy of 36 inches.

Thank you for sharing some measure of your hard earned knowledge.

Best,
-Rob

M ELEY · 10th September 2017, 10:37 AM

This is a dress-type small sword dating from late 18th/early 19th. Although small swords were falling out of fashion by the first quarter of the 1800's, many of the Germanic states were still using these types, with simple brass cast hilts often with poor or at best fair details in their casting. The hilt on yours is better than many I've seen.

Cleaning methods vary and undoubtedly, many of us have our own opinions. I personally would start with some very fine grit sandpaper, 400 grit, and some olive oil. Holding the grip, grip oiled blade firmly with paper and run it down length towards point without putting any pressure on tip to bend or break it.

corrado26 · 10th September 2017, 12:38 PM

I think the style and decoration of this sword is probably of Austrian origin. Look at the Fotos of two Austrian cadet swords
corrado26

shayde78 · 10th September 2017, 09:15 PM

Thank you for the comments so far.
Regarding the Austrian cadet swords, if you look at the blade cross section of my piece (shown in the 5th picture), you will see the blade is never rectangular. It begins as ovoid (is that a word?) at the ricasso, then transitions to a hexagonal cross section for the rest of the length. This seems different than the examples shared and was what made me think it was solidly dated to the 18th century, although I fully acknowledge my estimation of such things is based upon my gut, and not any actual experience.

M ELEY · 10th September 2017, 10:14 PM

Great catch, Corrado. At least my 'Germanic states' wasn't too far off.

Rob, the shape of the blade usually isn't a determinant of age with these. Looking back over the pics, though, I would lean more towards the 1790-1800 timeline due to the sword's vestigial pas d'ane and also the pommel 'button' capstan where the tang passes through the hilt. This feature died out at the turn of the 19th c. Again, an interesting piece-

corrado26 · 11th September 2017, 05:42 PM

The Rokoko-decoration of these two sword is IMO a little bit earlier: Both are typical for the time of Maria Theresia Queen of Hungary and sovereign of the Holy Roman Empire 1740 to 1780
corrado26

shayde78 · 13th September 2017, 07:41 PM

Thanks everyone. I think we're settling on the last quarter of the 18th century given structural details (pas d'ane, pommel button) and the decorative elements. All with a likely Austrian origin.

Thanks so much. I love to get an accurate tag on my items, both for my own sake, and in case something happens to me

, my wife will know what she's actually dealing with.

You all are the best!

9th September 2017, 06:37 AM	#1
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	small/court sword for comment and restoration tips Hello forumites! I am asking for your opinions on how best to address the fragile condition of the tip of this newly acquired smallsword/court sword. The pictures show the corrosion near the tip, and the oxidation along the entire blade. There is scrollwork along the first third, but it is hard to see, and harder to photograph. Also, I would love to learn how to determine the country of origin for such a piece. I think it is consistent with late 1700s examples. Of course, I always have anxiety something is a reproduction, so feel free to tell me the truth if you question authenticity. As I said in a previous thread, if I got ripped off, it is merely tuition for my education. Total length is just shy of 36 inches. Thank you for sharing some measure of your hard earned knowledge. Best, -Rob Attached Images

10th September 2017, 12:38 PM	#3
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	I think the style and decoration of this sword is probably of Austrian origin. Look at the Fotos of two Austrian cadet swords corrado26 Attached Images

10th September 2017, 10:37 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	This is a dress-type small sword dating from late 18th/early 19th. Although small swords were falling out of fashion by the first quarter of the 1800's, many of the Germanic states were still using these types, with simple brass cast hilts often with poor or at best fair details in their casting. The hilt on yours is better than many I've seen. Cleaning methods vary and undoubtedly, many of us have our own opinions. I personally would start with some very fine grit sandpaper, 400 grit, and some olive oil. Holding the grip, grip oiled blade firmly with paper and run it down length towards point without putting any pressure on tip to bend or break it.

10th September 2017, 09:15 PM	#4
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Thank you for the comments so far. Regarding the Austrian cadet swords, if you look at the blade cross section of my piece (shown in the 5th picture), you will see the blade is never rectangular. It begins as ovoid (is that a word?) at the ricasso, then transitions to a hexagonal cross section for the rest of the length. This seems different than the examples shared and was what made me think it was solidly dated to the 18th century, although I fully acknowledge my estimation of such things is based upon my gut, and not any actual experience.

10th September 2017, 10:14 PM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Great catch, Corrado. At least my 'Germanic states' wasn't too far off. Rob, the shape of the blade usually isn't a determinant of age with these. Looking back over the pics, though, I would lean more towards the 1790-1800 timeline due to the sword's vestigial pas d'ane and also the pommel 'button' capstan where the tang passes through the hilt. This feature died out at the turn of the 19th c. Again, an interesting piece-

11th September 2017, 05:42 PM	#6
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	The Rokoko-decoration of these two sword is IMO a little bit earlier: Both are typical for the time of Maria Theresia Queen of Hungary and sovereign of the Holy Roman Empire 1740 to 1780 corrado26

13th September 2017, 07:41 PM	#7
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Thanks everyone. I think we're settling on the last quarter of the 18th century given structural details (pas d'ane, pommel button) and the decorative elements. All with a likely Austrian origin. Thanks so much. I love to get an accurate tag on my items, both for my own sake, and in case something happens to me , my wife will know what she's actually dealing with. You all are the best!