Albanian judicical- execution kilij?

eftihis · 21st May 2008, 05:19 PM

Hallo i have seen this on a past auction under the above description, but with no other details or better photo.
It seems original, but have never seen something similar!
Any comments?

ariel · 21st May 2008, 08:41 PM

Very strange thingie..
I would not call it kilij, though. Rater, if anything, it looks like an Ottoman Sossun Pattah.
I would also want better documentation of its " execution" role. First, the scabbard is very utilitarian and " field-like"; second, execution swords everywhere tended to allow for a two-handed grip.
But, all doubts aside, a very impressive baby! I would not want to find myself on its receiving end.

Battara · 21st May 2008, 11:09 PM

I wouldn't call this a soussan pata either......

BTW - would not an Ottoman soussan pata be called a yataghan?

Jim McDougall · 22nd May 2008, 01:12 AM

Maybe its a Black Sea sosun pattah ?!!

Gavin Nugent · 22nd May 2008, 12:09 PM

It did sell recently for $7500 dollars plus premiums, in fact the same collection that my Kindjals came from and others I have, from talking to the owner there are a good many more stories to be told about his aquistions. The collection was considered the greatest and most comprehensive antique arms collection on the eastern sea board of Australia. Food for thought.

enjoy

Gav

Yannis · 22nd May 2008, 02:45 PM

It is a unique kilij - yataghan combination, but I cannot see why it is called "Albanian" or execution sword. A normal heavy kilij would be better for the last.

ariel · 22nd May 2008, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I wouldn't call this a soussan pata either......

BTW - would not an Ottoman soussan pata be called a yataghan?

Well, I should have added a

But, seriously, there are several varieties of Sossun Pattas: the Mughal one is, indeed, just a Yataghan with a "tulwar" handle.
But the Indian ones had recurved, widening blades not dissimilar from the one shown here.
You can see what I mean here
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2052
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=659
http://www.flickr.com/photos/awrose/2250985675/

Bill M · 23rd May 2008, 01:20 AM

Indian

Gavin Nugent · 23rd May 2008, 10:56 AM

ooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I like that.

Gav

eftihis · 12th October 2008, 11:59 PM

Hi, i found something very relevant to the previous one! But this looks even more like a beheading sword.
Any translation of the arabic text?

Gavin Nugent · 2nd July 2010, 12:16 AM

Good people,

I have bought this forward in the hope that this tanslation question from some time ago doesn't go unanswered. I think with the wonderful help available by the very nice people who do translate, something may be learned of this very interesting sword, even if it is just a phrase or two.

Gav

Zifir · 2nd July 2010, 10:01 PM

Hi,
The first inscription is easy: La feta illa Ali la seyfe illa Zulfikar (There is no hero like Ali, there is no sword like Zulfikar)

I will look at the second inscription when I go back home next week, presently I have to use a 10" screen notebook which becomes quite annoying when it comes to deciphering arabic inscriptions.

Kurt · 3rd July 2010, 11:51 AM

Hi ,

I'm sure this sword comes from Algeria.
See:
Splendeur thes arms Orientales.
Figure 62
Kurt

Gavin Nugent · 4th July 2010, 02:56 AM

Thanks Gents for bringing some more life to these old warriors.
I find them most interesting.

Gav

ArmsAndAntiques · 5th January 2014, 02:50 AM

And to resurrect an old thread, I'd like to point our attention to the recent Bob Hales publication, pg. 218, #538, where I believe this exact sword may have originated some years ago. Described by Mr. Hales as:

"An exceptionally rare Ottoman judicial sword, it has a watered blade, recurved and massively swollen towards the tip. It has a typically Algerian hilt made without a crosspiece and fitted with two-piece horn grips and a small silver shell device. See no. 537. It retains its leather scabbard fitted with engraved silver mounts; most of the back edge of the scabbard has a hinged silver cover to admit the extraordinary shaped blade. 18th or early 19th C."

Gavin Nugent · 10th January 2014, 02:14 AM

Mr Morgan did travel a lot with his wife and likely bought the sword from Bob Hales shop on one of his many trips abroad as he did discuss several other purchases he made abroad that were also sold when his collection was auctioned.

Perhaps Bob recalls Mr Morgan's visit?

Gavin

21st May 2008, 05:19 PM	#1
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Albanian judicical- execution kilij? Hallo i have seen this on a past auction under the above description, but with no other details or better photo. It seems original, but have never seen something similar! Any comments? Attached Images

23rd May 2008, 01:20 AM	#8
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Indian Attached Images

23rd May 2008, 10:56 AM	#9
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	nnnnnnniiiiccceeeeee ooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I like that. Gav

12th October 2008, 11:59 PM	#10
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	UPDATE Hi, i found something very relevant to the previous one! But this looks even more like a beheading sword. Any translation of the arabic text? Attached Images

2nd July 2010, 12:16 AM	#11
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	translation Good people, I have bought this forward in the hope that this tanslation question from some time ago doesn't go unanswered. I think with the wonderful help available by the very nice people who do translate, something may be learned of this very interesting sword, even if it is just a phrase or two. Gav

21st May 2008, 08:41 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Very strange thingie.. I would not call it kilij, though. Rater, if anything, it looks like an Ottoman Sossun Pattah. I would also want better documentation of its " execution" role. First, the scabbard is very utilitarian and " field-like"; second, execution swords everywhere tended to allow for a two-handed grip. But, all doubts aside, a very impressive baby! I would not want to find myself on its receiving end.

21st May 2008, 11:09 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	I wouldn't call this a soussan pata either...... BTW - would not an Ottoman soussan pata be called a yataghan?

22nd May 2008, 01:12 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,952	Maybe its a Black Sea sosun pattah ?!!

22nd May 2008, 12:09 PM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	It did sell recently It did sell recently for $7500 dollars plus premiums, in fact the same collection that my Kindjals came from and others I have, from talking to the owner there are a good many more stories to be told about his aquistions. The collection was considered the greatest and most comprehensive antique arms collection on the eastern sea board of Australia. Food for thought. enjoy Gav

22nd May 2008, 02:45 PM	#6
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	It is a unique kilij - yataghan combination, but I cannot see why it is called "Albanian" or execution sword. A normal heavy kilij would be better for the last.

2nd July 2010, 10:01 PM	#12
Zifir Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	Hi, The first inscription is easy: La feta illa Ali la seyfe illa Zulfikar (There is no hero like Ali, there is no sword like Zulfikar) I will look at the second inscription when I go back home next week, presently I have to use a 10" screen notebook which becomes quite annoying when it comes to deciphering arabic inscriptions.

3rd July 2010, 11:51 AM	#13
Kurt Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Germany Posts: 196	This is a Pala from Algeria. Hi , I'm sure this sword comes from Algeria. See: Splendeur thes arms Orientales. Figure 62 Kurt

4th July 2010, 02:56 AM	#14
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Comments Thanks Gents for bringing some more life to these old warriors. I find them most interesting. Gav

5th January 2014, 02:50 AM	#15
ArmsAndAntiques Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 80	And to resurrect an old thread, I'd like to point our attention to the recent Bob Hales publication, pg. 218, #538, where I believe this exact sword may have originated some years ago. Described by Mr. Hales as: "An exceptionally rare Ottoman judicial sword, it has a watered blade, recurved and massively swollen towards the tip. It has a typically Algerian hilt made without a crosspiece and fitted with two-piece horn grips and a small silver shell device. See no. 537. It retains its leather scabbard fitted with engraved silver mounts; most of the back edge of the scabbard has a hinged silver cover to admit the extraordinary shaped blade. 18th or early 19th C."

10th January 2014, 02:14 AM	#16
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Mr Morgan did travel a lot with his wife and likely bought the sword from Bob Hales shop on one of his many trips abroad as he did discuss several other purchases he made abroad that were also sold when his collection was auctioned. Perhaps Bob recalls Mr Morgan's visit? Gavin