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#1 |
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Hey guys, this isn't my field at all, but i ran across this article and thought some of you might find it interesting.
One thing i found of specific interest to me is that apparently there is a way to determine if something is forged meteoric ore without destroying part of the item. At least according to this article. ![]() http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7414544.stm |
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#2 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
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Hi David,
I wish the museum curator got frustrated with the fiasco and threw them away, over to this continent ![]() I wouldn't mind to keep them, even made with current steel ... the pair of them ![]() Fernando |
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#3 |
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First of all the pistols seem to be of Moroccan origin based on the inlaid spiral silver work motif. Second there is no way you want to make gun barrels from meteoric iron there are too many impurities that would cause the barrel to explode in the users face during use. So maybe these curators need to stop believing in these stories.
![]() Lew |
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#4 | |
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#5 | |
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Who is to say that these could have been European style pistols that were reworked? I have a Moroccan dagger with the same spiral motif on the scabbard and damascus gun barrels were more often seen on Ottoman and Arabic guns than European ones. Of course clearer pictures would help ![]() Lew Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 27th May 2008 at 11:00 PM. |
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#6 |
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that looks a lot more like european influenced turkish to me
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#7 | |
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![]() But let me take this chance to point out where my place is in Portugal ![]() Fernando |
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#8 | |
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#9 | |
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I know you live in Portugal ![]() ![]() Lew |
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#10 | |
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![]() Just couldn't resist to spot my place, when i saw that map ![]() Fernando |
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#11 |
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There was a discussion a while back on whether or not you could positively identify meteorite in keris blades, looks like science has caught up with our speculations!
![]() ![]() http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2899 |
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#12 | |
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#13 | |
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![]() ![]() ![]() ... And no green salads for them; we can spare some Afonso's dry biscuits ![]() Fernando |
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#14 |
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With all due respect, they look like european pistols to me, though decorated in a moroccan fashion. By the way, spaniards forged (not produced) wootz from India, and made mechanical damascus until mid 19th Century. There is documental evidence of this fact. The style of the pistols, does not reminds me any of the styles seen in North Africa, the Middle East and Turkey. Of course, I can be wrong.
Regards Gonzalo |
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#15 | |
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#16 |
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Hi Fernando
I dug this out of my closet. This is an early 20th century or earlier Moroccan/Algerian dagger with the same inset wire design as seen on the pistols. Lew |
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#17 | |
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They might have been looking for Iridium in the gun barrel which can indicate the presence of meteoric metals? Below is a Indian dagger made from meteoric Iron. Lew |
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#18 |
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Hi all! Iridium is present in all meteorites, as are Gallium and Germanium (at least in the ones I've bashed about
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#19 |
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This business of being able to positively identify material as being of meteoritic origin is something that's been tossed around for years. Going back some time, I contacted a number of metallurgists and academics involved in the investigation of meteorites and put the question to them as to whether it was possible to identify meteoritic material after it had been through the process of fire welding and forging.
I was unable to obtain confirmation of this possibility. Prior this contact of many people, I had already put the question to Prof Jerzy Piaskowski, the noted Polish historical metallurgist, with whom I have worked in cooperation since about 1988. We exchanged correspondence on this subject for about 12 months, and he could suggest no tests that might prove that something was of meteoritic origin. In the field of keris construction, where meteoritic material has been used, it is almost certain that it was used in combination with terrestrial ferric material. Any meteoritic material I have worked has similarly been combined with old irons. The process of fire welding involves raising the temperature of the material to be welded to the level where the surfaces of the pieces of material to be joined together are almost molten.It is the point at which the iron is just short of actually burning. The process burns off impurities such as carbon and after a number of such welds, perhaps as many as ten or twelve, you have good dense material that does not throw off sparks when raised to weld heat and hit. Now our scientists with their mega-multi-million dollar machine tell us:- "--- The colossal machine is able to probe matter at the atomic level, giving scientists unique insights into the structure and make-up of materials. ----- "What my neutron beams tell you are where atoms are and what atoms do," said Professor Taylor. "We try to understand at a microscopic level the structure, arrangement and forces that hold materials together." Crucially, this process is non-destructive. "Without [ISIS], we'd have to take a hacksaw and cut chunks out of the artifact to look at under the microscope," "They were completely different," Dr Godfrey told BBC News. "There were differences in microstructures, there were differences in carbon content, there were differences in chemical composition. ---" I absolutely believe this. The material that they looked at in the pistols was completely different, because all the impurities had been burnt out during the forging process, and the internal structures of the material had been altered. What the scientists found was material that in no way resembled the original meteoritic material, which is exactly what we would expect after this material had been through the welding and forging process. With this new machine it is possible to examine material without cutting it and subjecting it to microscopic examination, but it is not possible to claim that this machine can reveal new insights into the material, only that it can reveal similar things to microscopic and other conventional methods of examination, but without damage to the material. If conventional examination cannot confirm material to be of meteoritic origin, after that material has been subjected to the weld/forge process, then it is illogical to believe that this new method of examination can provide such confirmation. Based upon the information that is provided in the article, I understand that this new method of examination can provide similar information to the information obtained from a conventional examination, and it is able to provide this information without damage to the material. I rather suspect that neither the people who posed the question, nor the people who answered it had the vaguest idea of the processes that had been used to make the pistols. |
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#20 | |
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Not only the spiral efects but also the waves inside the paralel lines. Now, are these decors a Moroccan (or Algerian) exclusive or could they, instead of being a localized custom, belong to a general culture ... Muslim, for what counts ? I guess that firearms are rather more complicated to dissecate their origins than white (edged) arms. They are built with far more components, often each one of them provenant of the most distinct places. In the other hand, General Alvarez wrote in that letter that the pistols were the first essay on manufacturing arms in Buenos Aires. Maybe manufacturing was a "strong" term and they only assembled them, but obviously some enterprise was taking place there; there is no smoke without fire. This way the importing of the components was potentially from Spain, even if they were not Spanish ... although obviously not from Morocco, even being a surrounding area ![]() But once in the field of speculation, it could be that the General had the pistols stocks decorated by comission, a custom often used for presentation pieces. In such case, he might have ordered such fancy work from a Moor ![]() Let me stop the nonsense ![]() Fernando Last edited by fernando; 1st June 2008 at 12:48 PM. |
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#21 | |
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#22 |
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I understand what you're saying Jeff, and I do not disagree with you.
I'm not saying that it is not possible to identify material of meteoritic origin. What I am saying is that I put the question to a number of experts in this field and I could not get a confirmation from any of them that it could be done. That does not mean it cannot be done, but it does mean that none of these highly knowledgeable people were prepared to say that it could be done. I'm still not committed on this question. |
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#23 |
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Agreed, theoretically possible, practically impossible!
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