Barbary States Dagger

Aurangzeb · 9th August 2005, 03:07 AM

Hello all!

http://cgi.ebay.com/Collectible-Dagg...QQcmdZViewItem

I just got this off Ebay, It says Morocco but I think it might be from Algeria or Tunisia. I will post more pics once I get it. Any comments or help on origen is appreciated.

Rich · 9th August 2005, 03:23 AM

It looks very similiar to a Khodmi only with a guard. Even the decor
and wire wrap looks the same. Maybe a variation? Just a guess on my part.

Rich S

Aurangzeb · 9th August 2005, 04:06 AM

Hi Rich!

What is a khodmi? Where do they come from?

Emanuel · 9th August 2005, 02:45 PM

Hello,
It is a Moroccan weapon. This thread has some discussion on it at the end http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=khodme

Manolo

Justin · 9th August 2005, 04:24 PM

It does indeed appear to be a khodmi,there seem to be several different form though and the ones with guards generally seem to be newer,ill post pics of my khodmi for comparison,in a day or so.

Rich · 9th August 2005, 10:25 PM

Here's a pic of one of my Khodmi.

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinpic/khodmi.jpg

rich s

Tim Simmons · 9th August 2005, 10:41 PM

Purple Haze

Rich · 9th August 2005, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Purple Haze

Huh??? My graphics software for some reason always wants
to give everything a blue cast to it. Have no idea why or how
to not do it. Sorry.

Rich

Aurangzeb · 10th August 2005, 12:02 AM

Hi all!

So that is what a khodmio is, I wonder if the crossguard is a idea borrowed from the French stiletto of the 19th. century while Morocco was occupied by them? Are these attributed to a specific tribe or is it reigenal to the Atlas mountains of Morocco and Algeria? Thanks for the quick I.D. of this dagger.

P.S.- I have been hunting for a Libyan dagger for a while now and I can't seem to find one or what one looks like or even a name? I know at some point in history they must have had them what happend did they all dissaper!

Rich · 10th August 2005, 12:11 AM

I've been told Khodmi are/were mainly associated with the Berbers of
Morocco. Given modern cultural mixing however, I suspect khodmi style
knives are used by several groups over most of northern Africa.

Rich S

Aurangzeb · 10th August 2005, 01:09 AM

Hi all!

Do the circle desgiens on the hilt have to do with the "Evil Eye" because I haver seen flissya's with a similer desigen on the sheath from Algeria? Such as the one on Page-23 of "African Arms and Armour". Whould anyone happen to know what Morocco's association with the Barbary States piracy in the 19th. century?

Emanuel · 11th August 2005, 09:37 PM

Hello Aurangzeb,

The Barbary Coast had its capital in Algiers, Algeria, also comprising the coastal parts of Morocco, Tunisia and Egypt. Here's some old maps of it.
http://www.oldmapsbooks.com/MapPage/.../57542barb.htm

Manolo

Tim Simmons · 11th August 2005, 09:50 PM

Hello Mark,
I think you made a good chioce of knife, you get a lot of good, real knife for your money with these unlike other curved North African knives, unless you pay a small fortune.

Tim

Aurangzeb · 12th August 2005, 12:26 AM

Hi All!

Thanks for the help with it and the Barbary Coast map!

Aurangzeb · 28th August 2005, 05:14 AM

Hello All!

Just found this web site witha dagger similer to a khodmi in a veg way.

http://richmondthenandnow.com/Newspa...sh-Dagger.html

Mark...

Aurangzeb · 28th August 2005, 09:21 PM

Hello All!

I plan on remaking the lanyard how long should it be? Any advice on this whould be appreciated.

Mark...

Jim McDougall · 28th August 2005, 11:10 PM

The edged weapons of these North African regions are as can be seen, extremely difficult to be exact in identifying due to extreme diffusion and hybridization. While this example has every prospect to include it with the 'khodmi' group, it may well be more specifically the common peasant knife known as a 'mous' (mu). In "Knives and Daggers" by Zdenek Faktor (Hamlyn, 1989, pp.30-31) these are described, "...exclusively folk or peasant weapon is the knife known as the mu. Single edged straight or curved blade, usually engraved with quotations from the Koran and simple wooden handle. The sheaths of Moroccan daggers are equipped with a ring to which a silk cord is tied. The dagger is worn on the left hip and the silk cord loops over the right shoulder".
In the illustrations of these in the reference the handle is simple as wooden as described, and with rounded end as yours, however they are guardless, and the blades are much narrower typically, similar to the Moroccan s'boula.
Certain features on your example suggest Algerian influence, including the guard, which seems more prevalent on certain Algerian knives and edged weapons there. Also, the interesting circular motif which appears actually is possibly associated with similar Central Asian symbols with ancient ancestry that relates to either sun worship or possibly a symbolic shield, either of these remaining uncertain. In any case, these symbols occur on weapons in Afghanistan and especially the Balkans, from where Ottoman association would have carried into North Africa as it did certainly in Algeria.

With prevalent Berber tribal movement between Morocco's eastern Saharan regions and Algeria, it would seem that these would be quite likely for the provenance of this dagger. As always, geographic boundaries often have little to do with the identification of ethnographic weapons in most cases, especially in North Africa.

Best regards,
Jim

Aurangzeb · 28th August 2005, 11:23 PM

Hello Jim!

Very very very interesting, thanks for the help. So it's similer to the Ethiopia-Somalia border that is indifined because of various tribes. Since I catalog all my weapons for storage when not being diplayed I decided to put this one down as "Khodmi/mous from Morocco-Algeria region". I wonder why there is a hole drilled though the hilt?

Mark...

Jim McDougall · 29th August 2005, 12:58 AM

Hi Mark,
Exactly right, most of these tribal weapons cannot be pidgeonholed into definite categories because of tribal diffusion that carries them indiscriminately into other regions regardless of geographic boundaries.
I have a friend who in Beja, from Eritrea, while this tribe is typically associated with Sudanese and some Ethiopian areas. The weapons he has shown me as used by 'his people' are the 'X' hilted 'Hadendoa' daggers ( another Sudanese tribe) and the familiar kaskara (which he notes are termed only sa'if). As I have mentioned many times over the years, the term 'kaskara' is only known to western collectors, and is completely unknown in Africa.

Two years ago I did research on the typically termed 'Zanzibar' swords, which I showed were actually a form of Moroccan s'boula and the diffusion of weapons from Morocco via trade routes through Ethiopia and reaching the extremely distant but prominant port of Zanzibar. The debate still continues as to whether these are from Zanzibar, or Morocco as I contend.

The movements of the extremely complex Berber confederation of tribes, trade routes, Tuareg tribes and bedouin make matters even more confounding in establishing identities for many of these weapons across Saharan regions. I think sometimes one must be content with estimating the border regions we have discussed or in many cases using more description such as ' a peasant knife, 'mu', possibly Berber and probably of Saharan regions bordering Morocco and Algeria'.

I like the idea that you are intent on accurately identifying and cataloging the items you are collecting, which appear to be some well represented pieces. Nicely done!

All the best,
Jim

P.S.The hole in the hilt is most likely for the lanyard as described in the previous post, with cord tied over shoulder.

Aurangzeb · 29th August 2005, 01:26 AM

Hello Jim!

I am going to post some pictures of the other side of the blade because it has a very well ingraving. What I find odd about this knife is the sheath and hilt show sighns of wear and repair, there are two types of wire wrapping on the hilt and the sheath is well battered but the blade shows little or no use even though it is sharp.

Mark...

Aurangzeb · 29th August 2005, 04:51 AM

Greetings Everyone !

Here is a closeup digital pix of my Moroccan dagger blade for your review. Any comments are always most welcome and appreciated ! There seems to be several sun shaped ingravings on the blade. Chould the circle desighn be to ward off the 'evil eye'?

Best regards,

Mark...

Aurangzeb · 1st September 2005, 12:30 AM

Hello All!

In the book "African Arm and Armour" on Pg.23 first paragraph about the Evil Eye it says "Secondly, to reflect or dazzle the envious gaze by means of a small mirror, or other bright polished object such as a coin or button. An image of the eye itself may also be used in this role." I think that is what the circle design might mean. The outer circle representing the cornea of the eye the inner circle representing the retina of the eye and the dot representing the pupil. Chould the desighns on the blade possibly give a tribal group? Please forgive me if my parts of the eye are wrong but I have not been in health class for a while.

Mark...

P.S.-Is a Barbary Coast 'Corsair' a type of ship or is it the a crewman, I forgot and now it's bugging me.

Aurangzeb · 24th October 2005, 01:04 AM

Hello All!

I was just wondering are Khodmi's from the coastal parts of Nort-Africa of the Interior or both?

Mark...

9th August 2005, 03:07 AM	#1
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Barbary States Dagger Hello all! http://cgi.ebay.com/Collectible-Dagg...QQcmdZViewItem I just got this off Ebay, It says Morocco but I think it might be from Algeria or Tunisia. I will post more pics once I get it. Any comments or help on origen is appreciated.

11th August 2005, 09:50 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hello Mark, I think you made a good chioce of knife, you get a lot of good, real knife for your money with these unlike other curved North African knives, unless you pay a small fortune. Tim Attached Images

29th August 2005, 04:51 AM	#21
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Closeup Of Dagger Blade Greetings Everyone ! Here is a closeup digital pix of my Moroccan dagger blade for your review. Any comments are always most welcome and appreciated ! There seems to be several sun shaped ingravings on the blade. Chould the circle desighn be to ward off the 'evil eye'? Best regards, Mark... Attached Images

1st September 2005, 12:30 AM	#22
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	A Theroy Hello All! In the book "African Arm and Armour" on Pg.23 first paragraph about the Evil Eye it says "Secondly, to reflect or dazzle the envious gaze by means of a small mirror, or other bright polished object such as a coin or button. An image of the eye itself may also be used in this role." I think that is what the circle design might mean. The outer circle representing the cornea of the eye the inner circle representing the retina of the eye and the dot representing the pupil. Chould the desighns on the blade possibly give a tribal group? Please forgive me if my parts of the eye are wrong but I have not been in health class for a while. Mark... P.S.-Is a Barbary Coast 'Corsair' a type of ship or is it the a crewman, I forgot and now it's bugging me. Last edited by Aurangzeb; 1st September 2005 at 04:44 AM.

9th August 2005, 03:23 AM	#2
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	It looks very similiar to a Khodmi only with a guard. Even the decor and wire wrap looks the same. Maybe a variation? Just a guess on my part. Rich S

9th August 2005, 04:06 AM	#3
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi Rich! What is a khodmi? Where do they come from?

9th August 2005, 02:45 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, It is a Moroccan weapon. This thread has some discussion on it at the end http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=khodme Manolo

9th August 2005, 04:24 PM	#5
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	It does indeed appear to be a khodmi,there seem to be several different form though and the ones with guards generally seem to be newer,ill post pics of my khodmi for comparison,in a day or so.

9th August 2005, 10:25 PM	#6
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Here's a pic of one of my Khodmi. http://home.earthlink.net/~steinpic/khodmi.jpg rich s

9th August 2005, 10:41 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Purple Haze

10th August 2005, 12:02 AM	#9
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi all! So that is what a khodmio is, I wonder if the crossguard is a idea borrowed from the French stiletto of the 19th. century while Morocco was occupied by them? Are these attributed to a specific tribe or is it reigenal to the Atlas mountains of Morocco and Algeria? Thanks for the quick I.D. of this dagger. P.S.- I have been hunting for a Libyan dagger for a while now and I can't seem to find one or what one looks like or even a name? I know at some point in history they must have had them what happend did they all dissaper!

10th August 2005, 12:11 AM	#10
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	I've been told Khodmi are/were mainly associated with the Berbers of Morocco. Given modern cultural mixing however, I suspect khodmi style knives are used by several groups over most of northern Africa. Rich S

10th August 2005, 01:09 AM	#11
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi all! Do the circle desgiens on the hilt have to do with the "Evil Eye" because I haver seen flissya's with a similer desigen on the sheath from Algeria? Such as the one on Page-23 of "African Arms and Armour". Whould anyone happen to know what Morocco's association with the Barbary States piracy in the 19th. century?

11th August 2005, 09:37 PM	#12
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Aurangzeb, The Barbary Coast had its capital in Algiers, Algeria, also comprising the coastal parts of Morocco, Tunisia and Egypt. Here's some old maps of it. http://www.oldmapsbooks.com/MapPage/.../57542barb.htm Manolo

12th August 2005, 12:26 AM	#14
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi All! Thanks for the help with it and the Barbary Coast map!

28th August 2005, 05:14 AM	#15
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello All! Just found this web site witha dagger similer to a khodmi in a veg way. http://richmondthenandnow.com/Newspa...sh-Dagger.html Mark...

28th August 2005, 09:21 PM	#16
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello All! I plan on remaking the lanyard how long should it be? Any advice on this whould be appreciated. Mark...

28th August 2005, 11:10 PM	#17
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	The edged weapons of these North African regions are as can be seen, extremely difficult to be exact in identifying due to extreme diffusion and hybridization. While this example has every prospect to include it with the 'khodmi' group, it may well be more specifically the common peasant knife known as a 'mous' (mu). In "Knives and Daggers" by Zdenek Faktor (Hamlyn, 1989, pp.30-31) these are described, "...exclusively folk or peasant weapon is the knife known as the mu. Single edged straight or curved blade, usually engraved with quotations from the Koran and simple wooden handle. The sheaths of Moroccan daggers are equipped with a ring to which a silk cord is tied. The dagger is worn on the left hip and the silk cord loops over the right shoulder". In the illustrations of these in the reference the handle is simple as wooden as described, and with rounded end as yours, however they are guardless, and the blades are much narrower typically, similar to the Moroccan s'boula. Certain features on your example suggest Algerian influence, including the guard, which seems more prevalent on certain Algerian knives and edged weapons there. Also, the interesting circular motif which appears actually is possibly associated with similar Central Asian symbols with ancient ancestry that relates to either sun worship or possibly a symbolic shield, either of these remaining uncertain. In any case, these symbols occur on weapons in Afghanistan and especially the Balkans, from where Ottoman association would have carried into North Africa as it did certainly in Algeria. With prevalent Berber tribal movement between Morocco's eastern Saharan regions and Algeria, it would seem that these would be quite likely for the provenance of this dagger. As always, geographic boundaries often have little to do with the identification of ethnographic weapons in most cases, especially in North Africa. Best regards, Jim

28th August 2005, 11:23 PM	#18
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello Jim! Very very very interesting, thanks for the help. So it's similer to the Ethiopia-Somalia border that is indifined because of various tribes. Since I catalog all my weapons for storage when not being diplayed I decided to put this one down as "Khodmi/mous from Morocco-Algeria region". I wonder why there is a hole drilled though the hilt? Mark...

29th August 2005, 12:58 AM	#19
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Mark, Exactly right, most of these tribal weapons cannot be pidgeonholed into definite categories because of tribal diffusion that carries them indiscriminately into other regions regardless of geographic boundaries. I have a friend who in Beja, from Eritrea, while this tribe is typically associated with Sudanese and some Ethiopian areas. The weapons he has shown me as used by 'his people' are the 'X' hilted 'Hadendoa' daggers ( another Sudanese tribe) and the familiar kaskara (which he notes are termed only sa'if). As I have mentioned many times over the years, the term 'kaskara' is only known to western collectors, and is completely unknown in Africa. Two years ago I did research on the typically termed 'Zanzibar' swords, which I showed were actually a form of Moroccan s'boula and the diffusion of weapons from Morocco via trade routes through Ethiopia and reaching the extremely distant but prominant port of Zanzibar. The debate still continues as to whether these are from Zanzibar, or Morocco as I contend. The movements of the extremely complex Berber confederation of tribes, trade routes, Tuareg tribes and bedouin make matters even more confounding in establishing identities for many of these weapons across Saharan regions. I think sometimes one must be content with estimating the border regions we have discussed or in many cases using more description such as ' a peasant knife, 'mu', possibly Berber and probably of Saharan regions bordering Morocco and Algeria'. I like the idea that you are intent on accurately identifying and cataloging the items you are collecting, which appear to be some well represented pieces. Nicely done! All the best, Jim P.S.The hole in the hilt is most likely for the lanyard as described in the previous post, with cord tied over shoulder.

29th August 2005, 01:26 AM	#20
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello Jim! I am going to post some pictures of the other side of the blade because it has a very well ingraving. What I find odd about this knife is the sheath and hilt show sighns of wear and repair, there are two types of wire wrapping on the hilt and the sheath is well battered but the blade shows little or no use even though it is sharp. Mark...

24th October 2005, 01:04 AM	#23
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello All! I was just wondering are Khodmi's from the coastal parts of Nort-Africa of the Interior or both? Mark...