Indo-Persian Weapons? (pics)

BSer · 8th March 2005, 09:06 PM

I recently came into possesion of 3 items that have been in my parents house since i can remember. they got them from my grandfather when he passed away (many, many years ago). the items consist of a helmet, a knife (if it can be called that) and a sword.

after some research online, i believe they are indo-persian items, possibly 17th/18th century, but i have no idea how accurate that is. I also believe that the sword is called a talwar. other than that, no ideas.

they are in pretty good condition, at least i think so. and are just darn awesome looking.

anyway, on to the pics...and i apologize for the quality. took them on my way out the door today and there wasn't the best light.

The Helmet

closeup of the helmet

the knife

hilt of the knife - has writing i dont comprehend

the sword

artwork towards the tip

artwork towards the middle

hilt of the sword

thanks for any information that you guys can provide!

-BSer

Argentd · 8th March 2005, 09:46 PM

Remarkable, if these are authentic, they look to be Hamash Malkar swords from the late 15th century. For the love of god, tell me you're not handling these beauties with your bare hands!

These look to be authentic weapons used by the Janissary Corps of Sultan Salim I.

With any luck, Marcus already has the grail.

BSer · 8th March 2005, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argentd

Remarkable, if these are authentic, they look to be Hamash Malkar swords from the late 15th century. For the love of god, tell me you're not handling these beauties with your bare hands!

These look to be authentic weapons used by the Janissary Corps of Sultan Salim I.

With any luck, Marcus already has the grail.

unfortunately, i really know nothing about handling these items in the safest manner. or if the method of display now is damaging them or not. been like this for at least 25+ years. what is the recommended way of handling/displaying such items?

time to do some reading on the things you mentioned. thanks!

-BSer

Jens Nordlunde · 8th March 2005, 10:34 PM

Hi BSer,

When you get tired of reading, please give us a LOT of pictures, details too - please.
This looks interesting.

Jens

Andrew · 8th March 2005, 11:53 PM

BSer, interesting photos, and interesting username.

If you're looking for tips on conservation and storage, try the search function, as this has been discussed before.

As Jens notes, better photos will assist meaningful discussion of these items.

Welcome to the forum.

Andrew · 8th March 2005, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argentd

Remarkable, if these are authentic, they look to be Hamash Malkar swords from the late 15th century. For the love of god, tell me you're not handling these beauties with your bare hands!

These look to be authentic weapons used by the Janissary Corps of Sultan Salim I.

With any luck, Marcus already has the grail.

And welcome to the forum to you, as well, Argentd.

What about these items makes you think they would date to the 15th cenrury, or have been used by Janissaries under Sultan Salim I?

BSer · 8th March 2005, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

BSer, interesting photos, and interesting username.

If you're looking for tips on conservation and storage, try the search function, as this has been discussed before.

As Jens notes, better photos will assist meaningful discussion of these items.

Welcome to the forum.

thanks and i shall do some searching on the forums as far as handling/storage.

i will try to take some better/closer pics tonight when i get off work. hopefully i will be able to get some more up here tomorrow.

Username is my high school nickname (based off my initials).

-BSer

erlikhan · 9th March 2005, 12:23 AM

The helmet is from Iran , 18th c. or earlier, and the style and patination of the gold work look authentic,but the screws holding the nasal bar seem suspicious. I dont think such screws were used in that age. They should be rivets instead. Not?

Conogre · 9th March 2005, 01:12 AM

I know it's corny and I'll apologize in advance, but my instant reaction upon seeing the helmet was "Who knew that smiley faces have been around that long?"
Mike

Yannis · 9th March 2005, 10:53 AM

Photos are not good enough to judge quality but…

1. The iron mail under helmet is very little for real use. It could be worn out, but the triangles cuts are very symmetrical.

2. The small sword under helmet looks Indian. Tip looks blunt (to don’t hurt anyone). What the ring in blade is for? Hanging I suppose...

3. Tulwar is also Indian. Jens knows better, but why there is no artwork under the guard? The artist worked on a mounted blade.

4. I welcome the 2 new members in the forum. Bser who gave us an enigma and Argentd who gave us a solution

BSer · 9th March 2005, 08:57 PM

I grabbed out my other digi-camera last night and took a few pics to test out how it would work (the ones with the darker lighting). then took about 70+ more pics today before work. they are much clearer and more in focus. i won't link every pic here, but you can find them all at http://www.digitallywarped.com/stuff/new/.

SS pics are the shorter sword. LS pics are the longer sword. if anyone wants more/different/closer pics, let me know and i will try to make it so.

thanks for all the comments. hopefully these pics will help date the items or at least shed a bit more information.

-BSer

Rick · 9th March 2005, 09:35 PM

I'm no expert , but my opinion is that these are decorative pieces from the Orientalist period .

wolviex · 9th March 2005, 10:33 PM

I don't want to dissapoint you, but I must agree with Rick. It looks very 19th century to me - even late. I'm no expert, but the helmet and inlay on the blade of the sword are made very carelessly in my opinion. The naive display of animals somehow doesn't look like great job of masters working in earlier centurier. The sword with the hanging looks tourist piece to me - why, because we've got similiar Dao sword in museum with German mark on it

- the hanging is identical.

Best regards!

BSer · 9th March 2005, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolviex

I don't want to dissapoint you, but I must agree with Rick. It looks very 19th century to me - even late. I'm no expert, but the helmet and inlay on the blade of the sword are made very carelessly in my opinion. The naive display of animals somehow doesn't look like great job of masters working in earlier centurier. The sword with the hanging looks tourist piece to me - why, because we've got similiar Dao sword in museum with German mark on it

- the hanging is identical.

Best regards!

Not to worry, not dissappointing at all. i got them for free, i like them and was pretty much just looking for any information on them. if this is true, thats ok by me.

thanks for the information!

-BSer

ariel · 10th March 2005, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argentd

Remarkable, if these are authentic, they look to be Hamash Malkar swords from the late 15th century. For the love of god, tell me you're not handling these beauties with your bare hands!

These look to be authentic weapons used by the Janissary Corps of Sultan Salim I.

With any luck, Marcus already has the grail.

Whoa, whoa!
It is a custom here to support such statements with the data!
Please explain,:
1.What (who?) is Hamash Malkar?
2. Why would Janissaries who were Ottoman (!) soldiers wear a typical Persian helmet and carry what appears to be a Nepalese sacrificial Ram Dao with a late Persian handle and an Indo-Persian hunting Shamshir Shikargar with koftgari-ed instead of incised hunting scenes?
3. Which Sultan Selim do you refer to? Selim I (the Grim) or Selim II (the Drunk)? Both reigned in the 16th century.
I have a strong suspicion that the already voiced opinion of these items being 19th century Orientalist bazaar pieces is correct.

8th March 2005, 09:06 PM	#1
BSer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5	Indo-Persian Weapons? (pics) I recently came into possesion of 3 items that have been in my parents house since i can remember. they got them from my grandfather when he passed away (many, many years ago). the items consist of a helmet, a knife (if it can be called that) and a sword. after some research online, i believe they are indo-persian items, possibly 17th/18th century, but i have no idea how accurate that is. I also believe that the sword is called a talwar. other than that, no ideas. they are in pretty good condition, at least i think so. and are just darn awesome looking. anyway, on to the pics...and i apologize for the quality. took them on my way out the door today and there wasn't the best light. The Helmet closeup of the helmet the knife hilt of the knife - has writing i dont comprehend the sword artwork towards the tip artwork towards the middle hilt of the sword thanks for any information that you guys can provide! -BSer

8th March 2005, 09:46 PM	#2
Argentd Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 1	Remarkable, if these are authentic, they look to be Hamash Malkar swords from the late 15th century. For the love of god, tell me you're not handling these beauties with your bare hands! These look to be authentic weapons used by the Janissary Corps of Sultan Salim I. With any luck, Marcus already has the grail.

8th March 2005, 10:34 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi BSer, When you get tired of reading, please give us a LOT of pictures, details too - please. This looks interesting. Jens

8th March 2005, 11:53 PM	#5
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	BSer, interesting photos, and interesting username. If you're looking for tips on conservation and storage, try the search function, as this has been discussed before. As Jens notes, better photos will assist meaningful discussion of these items. Welcome to the forum.

9th March 2005, 12:23 AM	#8
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	The helmet is from Iran , 18th c. or earlier, and the style and patination of the gold work look authentic,but the screws holding the nasal bar seem suspicious. I dont think such screws were used in that age. They should be rivets instead. Not?

9th March 2005, 01:12 AM	#9
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	I know it's corny and I'll apologize in advance, but my instant reaction upon seeing the helmet was "Who knew that smiley faces have been around that long?" Mike

9th March 2005, 10:53 AM	#10
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Photos are not good enough to judge quality but… 1. The iron mail under helmet is very little for real use. It could be worn out, but the triangles cuts are very symmetrical. 2. The small sword under helmet looks Indian. Tip looks blunt (to don’t hurt anyone). What the ring in blade is for? Hanging I suppose... 3. Tulwar is also Indian. Jens knows better, but why there is no artwork under the guard? The artist worked on a mounted blade. 4. I welcome the 2 new members in the forum. Bser who gave us an enigma and Argentd who gave us a solution

9th March 2005, 08:57 PM	#11
BSer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5	I grabbed out my other digi-camera last night and took a few pics to test out how it would work (the ones with the darker lighting). then took about 70+ more pics today before work. they are much clearer and more in focus. i won't link every pic here, but you can find them all at http://www.digitallywarped.com/stuff/new/. SS pics are the shorter sword. LS pics are the longer sword. if anyone wants more/different/closer pics, let me know and i will try to make it so. thanks for all the comments. hopefully these pics will help date the items or at least shed a bit more information. -BSer

9th March 2005, 09:35 PM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	I'm no expert , but my opinion is that these are decorative pieces from the Orientalist period .

9th March 2005, 10:33 PM	#13
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	I don't want to dissapoint you, but I must agree with Rick. It looks very 19th century to me - even late. I'm no expert, but the helmet and inlay on the blade of the sword are made very carelessly in my opinion. The naive display of animals somehow doesn't look like great job of masters working in earlier centurier. The sword with the hanging looks tourist piece to me - why, because we've got similiar Dao sword in museum with German mark on it - the hanging is identical. Best regards!