Child Keris

[Terry K]

I was wondering if the had small Kerri's for children? I picked up a well made(I my opinion) one today. I couldn't get the pictures to load from my phone.
Thanks,
Terry

[Battara]

Do you mean a child's keris?

If so, you may want to check the search engine on this site.

[Terry K]

I did a search and found nothing

[Terry K]

here's some pics, i put some polish on it and it darkened it.

[Paul de Souza]

From an old post.

Keris Selit

Dunno if it is relevant.

[David]

Originally Posted by Paul de Souza

From an old post.

Keris Selit

Dunno if it is relevant.

Well, this is dressed, at least, as a Javanese keris. Keris selit are, AFAIK, a Malay thing. And generally speaking they tend to be of a somewhat higher quality than this piece.
I think this might more correctly be considered a keris patrem. Could have been intended either for a woman or a child i suppose.

[David]

Terry, i might also point out that the mendak, that bit of jewelry between the hilt and blade, is on backwards. The hilt is also facing 180 degrees in the opposite direction. This will all look a bit better if you remove the hilt, flip the mendak over and replace the hilt facing in the opposite direction.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Terry K

I picked up a well made(I my opinion) one today.

Hello Terry,

sorry again, not very well made! How long is it? Maybe a patrem or jimat keris, maybe forged from an old blade? David is correct, a keris selit is a Malay dress keris.

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Terry,

sorry again, not very well made! How long is it? Maybe a patrem or jimat keris, maybe forged from an old blade? David is correct, a keris selit is a Malay dress keris.

Regards,
Detlef

Detlef, there is a ruler in some of the photos so it looks like it might be about 6 inches long for the blade. I will say that generally patrems are not usually works of high keris art. Could be jimat as well i suppose.

[Terry K]

Gentleman, thank you for your expertise. I have always liked this weapon form but never held on to any. I have fixed the handle as suggested and does look more correct. I am a novice in indigenous people's weapons and appreciate your patience. The piece looked much better before I put wood gold on it. Blade is approximately 4 3/4 inches long. I thought the blade was very nice for how small it is.
Once again, thank you!
Terry

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

Detlef, there is a ruler in some of the photos....

Hi David,

I shouldn't comment after a hard working day! I really haven't noticed the ruler!

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Terry,

have a look to this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=jimat+keris

Regards,
Detlef

[Bejo]

Hello,

From what I know keris for woman or a child is called patrem. Do you have any idea how to determine whether a patrem keris is made for a woman or a child?

Attached is my patrem keris. It is 29 cm long.
Thank you,

Best regards,

Joe

[Jean]

Hello Joe,
If the blade alone is 29 cm long, it is not really a patrem but a short kris IMO. Patrem kris blades are usually about 20 cm long.
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Joe,
If the blade alone is 29 cm long, it is not really a patrem but a short kris IMO. Patrem kris blades are usually about 20 cm long.
Regards

I would agree with this, unless your 29 cm measurement is for the entire keris including the hilt.
Bejo, i don't know of any particular way to determine if an actual patrem was made for a woman or a child.

[Bejo]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Joe,
If the blade alone is 29 cm long, it is not really a patrem but a short kris IMO. Patrem kris blades are usually about 20 cm long.
Regards

Originally Posted by David

I would agree with this, unless your 29 cm measurement is for the entire keris including the hilt.
Bejo, i don't know of any particular way to determine if an actual patrem was made for a woman or a child.

Hello,

Thank you for your opinions,
29 cm is from gonjo to the top of wilah.

Any idea how do we call a keris that has smaller size than it's usual tangguh?

Let us say, a Majapahit keris with size 29 cm is quite normal. But, for a Mataram keris 29 cm is quite uncommon. (From my experience, the normal size will be about 34-37cm).

I have tried to compare this keris with other Mataram keris. Although they maybe are from two different Mataram tangguh(In my opinion the small one was younger than the other). The small keris has smaller size of gandik (pejetan and tikel alis) than the normal one. You can check the attached picture below. The normal one has 36,5 cm size.

Thank you,


Best regards,

Joe

[kulbuntet]

Hi all,

I could be wrong(please correct me if i am) but as far i was told, a patrem keris is just a short keris, not a short keris for a woman or child. I was explained that the keris was a man thing, and that one must had a certain age to own one. And that in most area's the women did not own their own keris. Only the head women of the Minagkabau on Sumatra had a own keris. Also a short keris, could be owned and wore by a man who did not wanted to be seen wearing one (personal opinion of a good friend and keris collector in my country), also did he told me that a imam or dukun often owned a patrem. He also pointed out illustrations of Iman Pangeran Diponegoro, were you clearly see him with several kerises that are smaller than usual, and can be considered to be called patrem. I personally do not link the name patrem keris to the ownership by a child or woman, since more then one person confirmed me this not to be correct.

Abut this keris first looks like the mendak is upside down. For the blade the photo's give me the impression that the gonjo is of different material then the blade it self, could be placed later. I have the feeling that the blade could have been longer, and that it was reworked. Could the bigger blade been broken? This is just my impression, and i am not a expert in any way. Just wanted to share this with you, and interested in the points of view of all others regarding this option.

Kind regards Michel
Kind regards

-Edit- P.S. I forgot to mention keris used by woman on Java preforming dance and/or wayang.

[David]

Originally Posted by kulbuntet

Hi all,

I could be wrong(please correct me if i am) but as far i was told, a patrem keris is just a short keris, not a short keris for a woman or child. I was explained that the keris was a man thing, and that one must had a certain age to own one. And that in most area's the women did not own their own keris. Only the head women of the Minagkabau on Sumatra had a own keris. Also a short keris, could be owned and wore by a man who did not wanted to be seen wearing one (personal opinion of a good friend and keris collector in my country), also did he told me that a imam or dukun often owned a patrem. He also pointed out illustrations of Iman Pangeran Diponegoro, were you clearly see him with several kerises that are smaller than usual, and can be considered to be called patrem. I personally do not link the name patrem keris to the ownership by a child or woman, since more then one person confirmed me this not to be correct.

Abut this keris first looks like the mendak is upside down. For the blade the photo's give me the impression that the gonjo is of different material then the blade it self, could be placed later. I have the feeling that the blade could have been longer, and that it was reworked. Could the bigger blade been broken? This is just my impression, and i am not a expert in any way. Just wanted to share this with you, and interested in the points of view of all others regarding this option.

Kind regards Michel
Kind regards

-Edit- P.S. I forgot to mention keris used by woman on Java preforming dance and/or wayang.

Michel, i don't necessarily disagree with everything you say here, but i am fairly certain that there are indeed many instances of patrem being made specifically for women. AFAIK, they were generally woman of some status, not the common folk and again, AFAIK, this is specific to Jawa and Madura (possibly parts of Sumatra as well). I personally own patrem that can indeed be traced to their original female owners. These should not be confused with the keris used in dance performance which general seem to be of a normal size (at least the ones i've seen). But it is just impossible to speak about the customs of keris cultures in any general manner because what was/is done in Jawa, for instance, is not necessarily so in Sulawesi or the Peninsula or elsewhere. However, i believe you can find many smaller keris throughout Indonesia that do indeed serve the purpose of grown men, not boys or women (frankly i have always been a little skeptical about keris for children as i would think that as you mention, a keris would not come to a young man until he was of a certain age and fully capable of owning a full sized keris. Keris are not, after all, children's toys).
In many parts of Indonesia the size of the keris reflects upon the man and owning a petite keris would not necessarily reflect favorably upon that person. I have also seen different measuring methods that are used to make sure that a keris is made to the "correct" size for an individual, sometimes based upon the size of certain body parts such as the thumb. Usually those methods would not produce a patrem sized blade except, perhaps, in the case of an extremely small individual.
Of course, on the Peninsula and, i believe, parts of Sumatra you have keris selit, which are usually small and a bit fancy. But i do not think that the keris selit is meant to be a person's only keris and is really more a secondary item of dress than your most important keris. Please correct me if i am wrong.
I am also aware that many dukun have been known to own smaller, usually rather crudely forged keris blades. Or, at least, many small, crudely forged blades have been presented as dukun keris on ePray regardless of the truth behind it. Certainly many collectors find the notion of owning a dukun blade attractive, so it is difficult fro me to discern between truth and hype in these cases.
There is also the case of talisman keris or jimat keris, though these are generally even smaller than the usual patrem.

[A. G. Maisey]

I am in agreement with David's comments.

My following remarks apply only to Jawa, that is, The Land of Jawa, as distinct from the Island of Jawa.

The word "patrem" is found in Old Javanese, it comes from the Sanscrit root "pattra", sometimes spelt "patra". In Sanscrit "patra" or "pattra" means the wing or feather of a bird.

In Old Javanese this word "pattra" has a number of meanings, and can also form a part of another word, and the same is true of the Sanscrit root. However, the word "patrem" in Old Javanese refers to the blade of a sword, knife, dagger or keris of small size that is often, but not always, used by a woman.

In Modern Javanese the meaning is similar to the meaning in Old Javanese , but that meaning is not as widely applied as in OJ , also the distinction between the complete implement and the blade only of the implement is not made, thus in MJ a patrem is to be understood as a small keris or dagger (cunderik/cundrik).

However, notwithstanding these academic definitions, in common usage in Central Jawa, the patrem is understood to be a woman's keris, and the reason that many high ranking women attached to the kraton carried such a keris was to indicate their readiness to commit suicide in the event that the kraton was over-run by an enemy.

In Javanese traditional thought a woman has no life that is not a part of her husband's life, thus it is desirable that a woman should immediately follow her husband in death, and it is unthinkable that a woman could accept violation by another man whilst her husband is still alive.

This of course is the ideal, the reality was and is somewhat different, but the patrem remains as a symbolic indicator of the ideal.

In respect of the size of a Javanese keris, the blade should be made to reflect both physical size and societal status of the owner, and the dress must be made to reflect these attributes.

[Johan van Zyl]

I would love to participate in this thread, even though I am not a boffin in terms of keris. My take on the handle is that it was a good, proper Javanese ukiran before it became thoroughly worn down.

Why has nobody suggested that the blade looks the way it looks because of repeated and prolonged warangan treatment? It could have lost some of its length, too. If my wild opinion is correct, it should explain everything, and there should not be reason to keep wondering if this keris is patrem.

Just my half-cent's worth!
Regards
Johan

[A. G. Maisey]

Johan, the hilt of this keris is simply very low quality work, it approximates a Jogja tunggak semi hilt, it is not worn down, just not much good to begin with.

Yes, the blade does appear to be old, yes, it might have lost some length due to age, but what we have in front of us is as it is now. It was never of much quality even when new, and and the dress it has been put into doesn't do it any favours.

I don't really care about what name anybody wants to put on it, call it a patrem if you will, call it a cunderik, call it a curigo, when all is said and done, it is a keris. Put it in a $2000 Solo ladrang and call it a wangkingan, its still a keris.

Frankly, if it was mine I'd re-dress it in some halfway respectable sandang walikat, so that in the future, whoever gets it next might feel inclined to hang on to it, rather than use for a packing piece, or recycle it as washers.

The thing is this --- at least in my eyes it is --- this is a keris that at one time somebody put time and effort into making. It might well have been made in a village, and made to the order of somebody who could not afford the work of an empu or a pande keris, so he just went along to the local smith.

The bloke who ordered it was proud of what he had when he got it, the maker had done the best he could. Over time it deteriorated and nobody respected the effort nor the intent that had gone into its creation. It deserves another chance. Keris are living links to the past, and they were not all objects of art made for royalty, some were simple representations of what simple people believed were keris and what they could afford.

We need to respect those who have gone before us, and part of that respect is the preservation of cultural belief. There is far, far too much focus in the entire keris world on the beauty of major works of art. The keris is deeply embedded in the culture that gave it birth, understanding both the culture and the keris involves more than the superficial appreciation of art.

In very simple terms we cannot hope to understand the Javanese keris unless we can understand the way in which Javanese people who observe the ways handed down to them by their forebears, see the world. This humble little keris was once alive, and should be given the chance to live again.

[Johan van Zyl]

Good reasoning, Allan, thank you. Of course, what you say goes for many other antique traditional edged weapons. As an example I offer the kukri.

On a light-hearted note: your use of the word "bloke" is a give-away for "down under". Here where I live we don't have "chaps", but we do have "ouks" and "boyties".

Regards
Johan

[A. G. Maisey]

Johan, with my sincere apologies, a khukri is a tool/weapon.

A keris is something just a little bit different to that.

[Johan van Zyl]

Without a doubt the kukri and the keris are not equals, and nobody has suggested that. But consensus seems to have it that a keris, like a kukri, is also a weapon, besides being much more than that. The kukri is an excellent tool, as you know, as well as a weapon that has seen concerted wartime as well as "private" use. So what I have gleaned from much reading and discussing is that the olden-day Nepalese had at least some of the religious esteem and reverence of the kukri when using it, as had the Javanese and other groups for the keris. At least you must admit there are some similar points of comparison between the two....?

I fully respect and acknowledge your stand on the keris, and so what I am merely trying to say is that collectors of other traditional icons have through their research efforts uncovered/developed similar masses of knowledge pertaining to those items.

So without arguing with you, I still state my point of view.

[A. G. Maisey]

Johan, you will get no arguments from me when it comes to the keris.

You may, or may not get discussion, but not argument.

In this particular case I prefer not to get into discussion in respect of the characteristics of khukris when compared to keris, for the very simple reason that I have very minimal knowledge of the cultural base of the khukri.

[Johan van Zyl]

I'm dead sure that if ever you and I could sit and talk around a coffee table, you would be able to offer me valuable insights also of the kukri. I think your extended experience in areas outside the keris would allow that.

I have found my searches for information on the kukri to be more problematic that my searches on Keris Warung Kopi! Hats off to you and so many dedicated keris collectors on this forum!

Thankfully
Johan

[David]

Fair enough Johan, but this is the Keris forum so any discussion or insights into the kukri are a bit out of place here.

[Johan van Zyl]

And right you are in what you say, David. You will realize, however, that in the discussion between myself, Alan and interested members, when the expression "...similar points of comparison between the two..." was used, we were not inviting one another to actually raise those points, or to offer one another insights, but I was talking of my difficulty in researching the kukri as part of a compliment to Alan and other participants who have helped to raise this keris forum to what it is.

I apologize. I should have expressed myself more clearly.

My wife says I'm too long-winded for clarity!

Johan