Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Miscellania
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 15th May 2016, 09:18 AM   #1
Sylektis
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 136
Default Destroying artwork

Not only warriors of ISIS destroy artwork. U.S.A. laws (about ivory) do the same. Look in what condition Bonhams auctioned weapons aged 200 and more years, from the Richard Wagner collection.
You can compare from their original state in the book "Oliver S. Pinchot, Arms of the Paladins, the Richard R. Wagner Jr. Collection"
Attached Images
           
Sylektis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 09:21 AM   #2
Sylektis
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 136
Default

Some more.
Attached Images
            
Sylektis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 09:23 AM   #3
Sylektis
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 136
Default

The end.
Attached Images
     
Sylektis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 10:01 AM   #4
estcrh
Member
 
estcrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
Default

Horrific destruction for no reason.
estcrh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 10:18 AM   #5
Ren Ren
Member
 
Ren Ren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Russia, Moscow
Posts: 370
Default

Vandalism.
Ren Ren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 10:46 AM   #6
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
Default

It's disgusting.
But I don't understand, if the ivory is more than one hundred year old, they cant do that...
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 10:52 AM   #7
Lee
EAAF Staff
 
Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Upstate New York, USA
Posts: 913
Angry Bureaucratic hysteria

Senseless, gratuitous vandalism that will save no animals but which does stand as a monument to arrogant, incompetent, lazy regulation and lawmaking done from a 'politically correct' mindset.
Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 11:57 AM   #8
Richard G
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 405
Default

A couple of points:-

Bonham's should be ashamed of themselves for having anything to do with it.

I wonder where the ivory is now?

And do you know, you can still import ivory into the USA providing you have shot the elephant yourself!
Richard G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 12:05 PM   #9
Sylektis
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 136
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard G
A couple of points:-

Bonham's should be ashamed of themselves for having anything to do with it.

I wonder where the ivory is now?

And do you know, you can still import ivory into the USA providing you have shot the elephant yourself!
My friend Eutyxis showed me this:
https://www.antiquestradegazette.com...ntiques-in-us/
Sylektis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 01:00 PM   #10
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
Default

Horrible!!!
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 01:32 PM   #11
Norman McCormick
Member
 
Norman McCormick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,596
Default

Straightforward Common Sense and Political Correctness appear to be as mutually exclusive in the U.S.A. as they are here in Europe.
Regards,
Norman.
Norman McCormick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 01:38 PM   #12
estcrh
Member
 
estcrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
It's disgusting.
But I don't understand, if the ivory is more than one hundred year old, they cant do that...
In the U.S. it is much more complicated, it is virtually impossible to prove how old the ivory is under the current system, they have decided to ignore the rights of people who have purchased or otherwise own antique items containing ivory when it comes to reselling these items. Now people resort to calling it "bone" and not selling items with ivory openly, this is a real problem here and it will only get worse.
estcrh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 01:42 PM   #13
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 1,204
Default

these pictures demonstrate urgently the grandiose stupiditiy of men at its best!!
corrado26
corrado26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 03:41 PM   #14
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

What can we do with our own ivory-, walrus- and rhino - handled swords and daggers?
Is it safe to buy such items from foreign countries to be shipped here?
What about shipping outside the U.S. ? Within the US?

These stories open a huge can of poisonous worms for antique dealers and weapon collectors.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 04:01 PM   #15
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
What can we do with our own ivory-, walrus- and rhino - handled swords and daggers?
Is it safe to buy such items from foreign countries to be shipped here?
What about shipping outside the U.S. ? Within the US?

These stories open a huge can of poisonous worms for antique dealers and weapon collectors.
And you probably never dreamed that your own country could or would mark you as a criminal.......neither did I.

Oh well off to the Fun store for more ammo for the AR.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 04:05 PM   #16
Tim Simmons
Member
 
Tim Simmons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: What is still UK
Posts: 5,806
Default

It is truly ghastly to see such vandalism even if done with good intention. Destroying ivory to kill the market, prestige concept of the material is probably only happening in " western " countries. Where I think there is little demand for new ivory. This is hitting the wrong people. However I can understand the the no if,s and buts view.
Tim Simmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 05:06 PM   #17
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,178
Default

political correctness at it's work again.

i lost a few old ivory netsuke i bought in japan a couple decades back. US customs just took them.

this thread's destruction is like defacing the mona lisa to avoid offending someone.

Last edited by kronckew; 16th May 2016 at 10:58 AM.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 05:19 PM   #18
Lee
EAAF Staff
 
Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Upstate New York, USA
Posts: 913
Default

This article covers some of the implications. I expect that these regulations will ultimately face court challenge as it is a seizure of the value of a person's property without adequate justification.

Obviously I do not at all believe the demonization of antique ivory is going to save any wildlife. Indeed Kenya's recent mass ivory burn was just stupid. Sell it though legal channels to where there is demand for big money and use the proceeds to combat the poachers.
Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 05:37 PM   #19
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
This article covers some of the implications. I expect that these regulations will ultimately face court challenge as it is a seizure of the value of a person's property without adequate justification.

Obviously I do not at all believe the demonization of antique ivory is going to save any wildlife. Indeed Kenya's recent mass ivory burn was just stupid. Sell it though legal channels to where there is demand for big money and use the proceeds to combat the poachers.
Oh, that would be too damn easy Lee.
How the hell do we always manage to wind up with people running the show that do things like this?
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 06:47 PM   #20
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,178
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
... Sell it though legal channels to where there is demand for big money and use the proceeds to combat the poachers.
sell it at a low bargain price that makes it uneconomical for poachers to carry on...
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 07:18 PM   #21
asomotif
Member
 
asomotif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,224
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
this thread's destruction is like defacing the mona lisa to avoid offending someone.
Her right wrist is still very naked.
asomotif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 07:53 PM   #22
Norman McCormick
Member
 
Norman McCormick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,596
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
How the hell do we always manage to wind up with people running the show that do things like this?

Anyone who wants to make politics their career should automatically be barred from doing so!!!
Norman McCormick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 08:57 PM   #23
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,254
Default

Quote:
sell it at a low bargain price that makes it uneconomical for poachers to carry on...
That doesn't work, especially when stupid "pseudo-pharmaceutic" demand exceeds remaining wildlife as evident with rhino. I hear that even despite being regarded as useless from a TCM point of view, antique horn gets stripped from cultural artifacts for resale to dumb "customers" which is just as criminal for the preservation of mankind's cultural heritage.

This is a terribly difficult subject and I do understand those with good and certainly laudable intentions who want to save rhinos, elephants, tigers, and other wildlife in jeopardy. Given the extreme losses we have been witnessing during the last decades, I could live with fairly drastic measures - if they really work and also take into account that antique cultural artifacts are a heritage of mankind that also desperately needs to be preserved from extinction, i. e. destruction.

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 09:00 PM   #24
Robert
EAAF Staff
 
Robert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Centerville, Kansas
Posts: 2,196
Default

The immeasurable stupidity as well as the blind following of the new 'politically correct" doctrine that lead to this is far more dangerous than just what is shown here. Unless something is done that will change this kind of thinking I am afraid of what might come next. Can you imagine if this were to become the norm what our museums might look like in the future? Not just the removal of offencive objects, ivory, edged weapons, but possibly the wanton removal and destruction of these items as well as anything else that might be deemed offencive in the eyes of the politically correct. The removal of the ivory on the items originally being discussed is not only the senseless destruction of objects of art, but of history itself.
Robert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 09:30 PM   #25
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,178
Default

removed by me to 'not offend'.

Last edited by kronckew; 16th May 2016 at 10:30 AM.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 09:41 PM   #26
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman McCormick
Anyone who wants to make politics their career should automatically be barred from doing so!!!
We need a vaccine for this disease.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 10:13 PM   #27
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,882
Default

Rick, that vaccine is called :- REVOLUTION.

It works by destruction of the offending elements of the whole.

These elements can be identified by their inability to act in a way that is in harmony with basic human rights.

STORY

Several months ago the man who is arguably the foremost authority on the artistic aspects of the Javanese keris, and who almost single-handedly was responsible for the re-birth of the keris in Jawa asked me if I would accept a gift from him.

Anything you get for nothing must be good. Of course I said I'd be more than happy to accept his gift.

The gift duly arrived.

It was a number of very good ivory hilts.

I rang him and thanked him profusely, and asked why he had given them to me.

"Well Alan, I live in America, and I am very fearful that if it becomes known to the wrong people that I possess some ivory objects, my home will be invaded, the objects will be destroyed and I and my wife will be prosecuted. "

The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2016, 10:17 PM   #28
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
Unhappy

Driven by:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...y/christy-text
How sad.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th May 2016, 12:19 AM   #29
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,623
Default

He said he was going to "transform" America.
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th May 2016, 12:24 AM   #30
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,115
Default

Well, these examples shown here are a terrible shame and i do believe that something most definitely needs to be done to both protect these precious and beautiful antiques as well as the lives of elephants and other ivory bearing animals that exist in this world. This issue is very complex, but i certainly cannot see how the destruction of antique ivory can save the elephant from extinction.
That said, i do fear that we are being a bit too fearful of our own private collections. These laws are, for the most part, governing commerce. I do not see that the U.S. government is going to march into any museums anytime soon and destroy the vast collections of antique ivory artifacts that can be found there. Bonham auctioned these weapons which is how they fell prey to this ridiculous law that affects antique ivory as well as new. Despite the fears of the American collector who sent his ivory hilts to Alan for fear of confiscation, i have serious doubts that private collections are in danger...at this moment. I do think the collectors in all fields that do come in contact with antique ivory need to band together, sooner rather than later, to petition for a more just reading of current laws to ensure that antique ivory is not problematic for authorities in the future.
I would also prefer that this thread stay both civil and non-political to avoid a disastrous result in the end.

Last edited by David; 16th May 2016 at 02:46 PM. Reason: Grammatical correction
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.