Ottoman banner spears?

erlikhan · 13th May 2006, 12:25 PM

I bought these two spear heads with the introduction as Ottoman banner stick heads, but I havent seen many exact Ottoman fighting spear or bannerheads till now so who knows? anyone here perhaps?
One's hilt bracelet is florally chiselled silver and other copper with silver edges. I wonder your comments about the interesting wavy structure of the steel layers.I hope you can see them in the picture.

Aqtai · 13th May 2006, 02:09 PM

If you mean standard (or tugh) heads, then I think the answer is no, those look like ordinary lance-heads to me.

erlikhan · 13th May 2006, 02:13 PM

Tugh head or yes-standards as the correct definition in English.. If lance head, I am not sure but should they not be a bit heavier and stronger to thrust efficiently when thrown?(though I vote on the "not standards" side too)

Aqtai · 13th May 2006, 02:39 PM

I Think this is the sort of thing you had in mind, although this example is actually Mamluk (I couldn't find a picture of an Ottoman tugh).

Click on the thumbnail for a larger picture:

Aqtai · 13th May 2006, 02:55 PM

Still not found a photo of an Ottoman tugh, however I did find this line drawing though from Osprey's "Armies of the Ottoman Turks 1300-1774" by David Nicolle:

mmontoro · 13th May 2006, 04:22 PM

Both the blades and ferrules look like Indonesian tombak to me.

dennee · 13th May 2006, 04:30 PM

They did strike me as tombak-like too. In his book "Ottoman Art In the Service of the Empire," Zdzislaw Zygulski includes a chapter on tughs. While there are variations, the "classic" Ottoman tugh has a rounded finial.

Tim Simmons · 13th May 2006, 06:12 PM

They look Malay or Borneo to me.

erlikhan · 13th May 2006, 06:31 PM

Right,we can ignore the tugh theory, should be lance heads but from where..I found two samples looking a bit similar here. http://www.ashokaarts.com/non-edged/no-11.html . introduced as indonesian spears, but blades are not seen clear enough,and decoration style on silver collars..?? The question that must be asked can be ,if lance structures in Asian countries were differing very much or not from each other..I dont think they should differ as much as swords or daggers,but?? These pieces were brought here from Syria,that is the only certain fact about them.I made them resticked here. To Syria,could or why should indonesian spears had come in past?? I think I must examine Ottoman lances more carefully in my next visit to Military Museum..

Aqtai · 13th May 2006, 06:38 PM

I would agree with them being Indonesian rather than Ottoman. All the Mamluk, Ottoman and Persian lance-heads that I have seen have an almost triangular shape, although saying that I haven't seen that many.

I haven't got any pictures, I'll try and see if I can find some.

Tim Simmons · 13th May 2006, 07:00 PM

I have this spear, though not the same is clearly from the same part of the world. Pics of two sides of the same spear blade. I have shown it before and I think the consensus was Malay or Borneo.

M.carter · 13th May 2006, 07:08 PM

If you bought them from Syria, they might as well be arab, used by the bedouins. Bedouins used lances and swords primarily till early 20th century, and that lance head looks just like a bedouin one, long and slender. Although bedouin lances usually had red feather plumes right under them, that may have worn off.

In a book about a certain bedouin tribe Ive read, it says that bedouins used to obtain lances mainly from Baghdad, but also from Damascus.

I can provide some pics if you're interested.

ward · 13th May 2006, 07:53 PM

hello
Look at the silver work on the one spear shaft. The motif looks a lot like the pics I have attached of a javanese spear I sold a while ago

mmontoro · 13th May 2006, 08:14 PM

Ward, that is an interesting example you furnished in that the ferrule looks very Javanese, but the blade resembles one I have that I believe is Moro. I remember watching it on auction. I'll try to post images later.

M.

Let's see if these show up ok. The budiak on top and the tombak below it

M.carter · 13th May 2006, 08:35 PM

This raises an interesting question, how did these Indonesian items got to Syria? Its a very far away country geographically, and historically and culturally, it had/has no affliation with Syria, and as erlikhan said, he bought these items from Syria.

ward · 13th May 2006, 08:48 PM

maybe a syrian was working overseas and picked it,diplomat,etc. I once bought a very good Turkish rifle out of a chicken coup in the country side of Maryland. You never know where things will turn up

erlikhan · 13th May 2006, 08:52 PM

I didnt buy them from Syria.A known syrian dealer brought them from Syria,along with many certainly Ottoman period non-arms antiquities .And they were in bad condition which denies a past as a part of any collection,silvers got black and there were no sticks.So nothing that deserves to get imported to Syria from Indonesia by looking..But I accept there are similarities in both structure and decoration styles with the indonesian ones.Are there no native Indonesian members in the forum?Their opinion could help.

And M.Carter,if it will not bother you,I would like very much to see those Bedouin lance pictures.

ward · 13th May 2006, 09:03 PM

I have seen us civil war weapons in Germany. Indian weapons in Morocco and Mexico. Most are not that spectaular. Things move around and show up. Just a observation.

ward

M.carter · 13th May 2006, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

I didnt buy them from Syria.A known syrian dealer brought them from Syria,along with many certainly Ottoman period non-arms antiquities .And they were in bad condition which denies a past as a part of any collection,silvers got black and there were no sticks.So nothing that deserves to get imported to Syria from Indonesia by looking..But I accept there are similarities in both structure and decoration styles with the indonesian ones.Are there no native Indonesian members in the forum?Their opinion could help.

And M.Carter,if it will not bother you,I would like very much to see those Bedouin lance pictures.

They could be Indonesian, I never said they werent, but they could also have been Syrian

Here you go:

Battara · 15th May 2006, 08:43 PM

"but the blade resembles one I have that I believe is Moro."

Mmontoro, your Moro spear is wonderful, especially the blade. Deeply etched and I'll bet having a twist core. Ferrule is Moro.

mmontoro · 16th May 2006, 04:08 PM

Thank you, Jose. Coming from you that certainly is a compliment. It is twisted core and also complete with the original long shaft. I felt very strongly about the Moro attribution, but having made a boo-boo or two in print here before, I rarely state anything as a fact. Eyes/ears open and mouth shut is my current philosophy ;^)

How is your current backlog of work?

Battara · 17th May 2006, 02:44 AM

My backlog is coming along fine, thankyou.

Seriously, I am catching up (and my last job search and illness set me back some).

Folks can send me requests and stuff (still working on stuff in the meantime).

Amaris · 8th September 2006, 06:54 AM

HI,
I saw your thread.

I haven't seen a good example of a Tugh prior to 1600. But, this is my take on it. This was my first one, so I didn't use real horse hair.

I experimented with white wig hair and the black hair from a Halloween witches hat. The wig hair worked the best of the two. The black hair from the witches hat was too plastic-y. It tangles, and is just a real pain to work with. The dowel is wrapped with Macrame Cording that came with a slight pattern in it. The tuft of hair that sticks out at the top is supported by triple wrapping the cording above it. Then, wrapping the wig hair around to whatever thickness you want. I added a thick bottom after the tuft for support and a balanced effect to the area. I screwed up the center pony tails by trying to wrap the black hair with each wrap of cording. This created an effect of layers. So, I'm gathering hair from several layers in order to make a pony tail. If I had just wrapped the hair onto the dowel like the very bottom, I then could have created my pony tails and they would have looked better.
I also tried to make a "Ball" on the dowel with red cording,... I just can't figure out how to do it, yet.

Amaris · 8th September 2006, 07:01 AM

some examples of tughs:

http://www.tuerkenbeute.de/sam/sam_hoh/

http://www.turkishculture.org/pages.php?SearchID=175

Amaris

13th May 2006, 12:25 PM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Ottoman banner spears? I bought these two spear heads with the introduction as Ottoman banner stick heads, but I havent seen many exact Ottoman fighting spear or bannerheads till now so who knows? anyone here perhaps? One's hilt bracelet is florally chiselled silver and other copper with silver edges. I wonder your comments about the interesting wavy structure of the steel layers.I hope you can see them in the picture. Attached Images

13th May 2006, 02:13 PM	#3
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Tugh head or yes-standards as the correct definition in English.. If lance head, I am not sure but should they not be a bit heavier and stronger to thrust efficiently when thrown?(though I vote on the "not standards" side too) Last edited by erlikhan; 13th May 2006 at 02:25 PM.

13th May 2006, 04:22 PM	#6
mmontoro Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 91	Tombak Both the blades and ferrules look like Indonesian tombak to me.

13th May 2006, 07:00 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I have this spear, though not the same is clearly from the same part of the world. Pics of two sides of the same spear blade. I have shown it before and I think the consensus was Malay or Borneo. Attached Images

13th May 2006, 07:53 PM	#13
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	hello Look at the silver work on the one spear shaft. The motif looks a lot like the pics I have attached of a javanese spear I sold a while ago Attached Images

13th May 2006, 02:09 PM	#2
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	If you mean standard (or tugh) heads, then I think the answer is no, those look like ordinary lance-heads to me.

13th May 2006, 02:39 PM	#4
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	I Think this is the sort of thing you had in mind, although this example is actually Mamluk (I couldn't find a picture of an Ottoman tugh). Click on the thumbnail for a larger picture:

13th May 2006, 02:55 PM	#5
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Still not found a photo of an Ottoman tugh, however I did find this line drawing though from Osprey's "Armies of the Ottoman Turks 1300-1774" by David Nicolle:

13th May 2006, 04:30 PM	#7
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	They did strike me as tombak-like too. In his book "Ottoman Art In the Service of the Empire," Zdzislaw Zygulski includes a chapter on tughs. While there are variations, the "classic" Ottoman tugh has a rounded finial.

13th May 2006, 06:12 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	They look Malay or Borneo to me.

13th May 2006, 06:31 PM	#9
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Right,we can ignore the tugh theory, should be lance heads but from where..I found two samples looking a bit similar here. http://www.ashokaarts.com/non-edged/no-11.html . introduced as indonesian spears, but blades are not seen clear enough,and decoration style on silver collars..?? The question that must be asked can be ,if lance structures in Asian countries were differing very much or not from each other..I dont think they should differ as much as swords or daggers,but?? These pieces were brought here from Syria,that is the only certain fact about them.I made them resticked here. To Syria,could or why should indonesian spears had come in past?? I think I must examine Ottoman lances more carefully in my next visit to Military Museum..

13th May 2006, 06:38 PM	#10
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	I would agree with them being Indonesian rather than Ottoman. All the Mamluk, Ottoman and Persian lance-heads that I have seen have an almost triangular shape, although saying that I haven't seen that many. I haven't got any pictures, I'll try and see if I can find some.

13th May 2006, 07:08 PM	#12
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	If you bought them from Syria, they might as well be arab, used by the bedouins. Bedouins used lances and swords primarily till early 20th century, and that lance head looks just like a bedouin one, long and slender. Although bedouin lances usually had red feather plumes right under them, that may have worn off. In a book about a certain bedouin tribe Ive read, it says that bedouins used to obtain lances mainly from Baghdad, but also from Damascus. I can provide some pics if you're interested.

13th May 2006, 08:14 PM	#14
mmontoro Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 91	Ward, that is an interesting example you furnished in that the ferrule looks very Javanese, but the blade resembles one I have that I believe is Moro. I remember watching it on auction. I'll try to post images later. M. Let's see if these show up ok. The budiak on top and the tombak below it Last edited by mmontoro; 14th May 2006 at 01:17 AM. Reason: add images

13th May 2006, 08:35 PM	#15
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	This raises an interesting question, how did these Indonesian items got to Syria? Its a very far away country geographically, and historically and culturally, it had/has no affliation with Syria, and as erlikhan said, he bought these items from Syria.

13th May 2006, 08:48 PM	#16
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	maybe a syrian was working overseas and picked it,diplomat,etc. I once bought a very good Turkish rifle out of a chicken coup in the country side of Maryland. You never know where things will turn up

13th May 2006, 08:52 PM	#17
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I didnt buy them from Syria.A known syrian dealer brought them from Syria,along with many certainly Ottoman period non-arms antiquities .And they were in bad condition which denies a past as a part of any collection,silvers got black and there were no sticks.So nothing that deserves to get imported to Syria from Indonesia by looking..But I accept there are similarities in both structure and decoration styles with the indonesian ones.Are there no native Indonesian members in the forum?Their opinion could help. And M.Carter,if it will not bother you,I would like very much to see those Bedouin lance pictures.

13th May 2006, 09:03 PM	#18
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I have seen us civil war weapons in Germany. Indian weapons in Morocco and Mexico. Most are not that spectaular. Things move around and show up. Just a observation. ward

15th May 2006, 08:43 PM	#20
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,225	"but the blade resembles one I have that I believe is Moro." Mmontoro, your Moro spear is wonderful, especially the blade. Deeply etched and I'll bet having a twist core. Ferrule is Moro.

16th May 2006, 04:08 PM	#21
mmontoro Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 91	Thank you, Jose. Coming from you that certainly is a compliment. It is twisted core and also complete with the original long shaft. I felt very strongly about the Moro attribution, but having made a boo-boo or two in print here before, I rarely state anything as a fact. Eyes/ears open and mouth shut is my current philosophy ;^) How is your current backlog of work?

17th May 2006, 02:44 AM	#22
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,225	My backlog is coming along fine, thankyou. Seriously, I am catching up (and my last job search and illness set me back some). Folks can send me requests and stuff (still working on stuff in the meantime).

8th September 2006, 06:54 AM	#23
Amaris Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3	My attempt at recreating a Tugh HI, I saw your thread. I haven't seen a good example of a Tugh prior to 1600. But, this is my take on it. This was my first one, so I didn't use real horse hair. I experimented with white wig hair and the black hair from a Halloween witches hat. The wig hair worked the best of the two. The black hair from the witches hat was too plastic-y. It tangles, and is just a real pain to work with. The dowel is wrapped with Macrame Cording that came with a slight pattern in it. The tuft of hair that sticks out at the top is supported by triple wrapping the cording above it. Then, wrapping the wig hair around to whatever thickness you want. I added a thick bottom after the tuft for support and a balanced effect to the area. I screwed up the center pony tails by trying to wrap the black hair with each wrap of cording. This created an effect of layers. So, I'm gathering hair from several layers in order to make a pony tail. If I had just wrapped the hair onto the dowel like the very bottom, I then could have created my pony tails and they would have looked better. I also tried to make a "Ball" on the dowel with red cording,... I just can't figure out how to do it, yet. Attached Images

8th September 2006, 07:01 AM	#24
Amaris Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3	some examples of tughs: http://www.tuerkenbeute.de/sam/sam_hoh/ http://www.turkishculture.org/pages.php?SearchID=175 Amaris