Unknown Short Sword Or Big Knife

Robert · 5th November 2007, 12:53 AM

I can't remember if I have ever posted this item before or not so if I have please remove this. This short sword or knife shows some age but I cannot place when or where it is from.

The blade has a 4-1/2" unsharpened false edge. The guard is either red brass or copper. The grip is horn and the fittings are brass. The tang goes all the way through the hilt and is riveted over. The scabbard is leather but missing the drag and the band at the throat with the retaining loop but still has the original frog. Any help in identifying where this is from and of what age it is will be greatly appreciated. Thanks for any help offered.

Blade length 13-1/8"
Blade at widest 1-3/8"
Blade at thickest 3/16"
Hilt length 4-3/4"

Robert

Chris Evans · 5th November 2007, 07:59 AM

Hi Robert,

Call me suspicious, but there is something not quite right with this knife. The condition and luster of the fittings is inconsistent with that of the blade and sheath.

Other than this I cannot help. Have you tried consulting Bernard Levine?

Cheers
Chris

Robert · 5th November 2007, 03:11 PM

Hi Chris,
I'm afraid that the way the fittings look is my fault. The fitting were quite dirty and starting to corrode when I found this knife so I cleaned them enough to remove most of the corrosion then waxed them. They are not as shinny as they look. Some of the shine is probably due to a combination of the wax and the flash on the camera when I took the pictures. If you look at the last picture you can still see some of the oxidation on the band going around the grip. I was trying not to over clean them. If I don't get any response here I will contact Mr Levine for his opinion. Thank you for input on this item.

katana · 5th November 2007, 07:25 PM

Hi Robert
it does look similar to a European hunting hanger .... but there is 'something' about it that seems SEA. Perhaps Dutch ?

Battara · 6th November 2007, 02:33 AM

It is not Filipino. I was originally thinking Mexican, high ranking officer.

Robert · 6th November 2007, 02:34 AM

Hi Katana,
This is another one of the items that I have that I just have no idea on. It does have a SEA look to it but from where or when I have no clue. The scabbard is very similar in style and design to one on a tabak that I have. As far as Dutch so far I have not been able to find anything resembling this piece. Thank you your help and interest.

Robert

Robert · 6th November 2007, 02:51 AM

Hi Jose,
We must have been posting at the same time.

Mexico, I'll start looking in that direction. Do you have any idea of age for this item? Thank you again for all your help.

Robert

Chris Evans · 6th November 2007, 03:31 AM

Hi Battara,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

It is not Filipino. I was originally thinking Mexican, high ranking officer.

If Mexican, where would the local cutlers have obtained such a hefty piece of horn? I mean it looks more like that of water buffalo or similar than cattle. Also, how did they make the pommel and separator - Would they have had the means to? Of course, all of this could have been taken from another weapon. Or else, the complete piece was made in Europe. Just my thoughts.

Cheers
Chris

Battara · 8th November 2007, 02:42 AM

Horn? Thank you Chris - I missed that one. In that case, it may be Filipino after all but in more Spanish style.

Although - there was a lot of trade between Mexico and the Philippines for centuries....

Robert · 29th October 2008, 12:16 AM

A few more pictures. I hope these help.

trenchwarfare · 29th October 2008, 04:47 AM

I sold a very similar knife on ebay a while back. Is this it? Frog looks different. If same, was an ebay purchase. Seller said it was carried by an Italian officer, in Ethiopia, pre WWI?

Robert · 29th October 2008, 05:36 AM

Trenchwarfare, Thank you for responding to this post and for the information. To be honest I really can't remember exactly how long that I have had this knife but I believe that I bought it about 2 years (or maybe a little longer) ago on ebay. The frog is the one that came with it when I bought it. Was the grip on the one that you had made of water buffalo horn? Thanks again.

Robert

trenchwarfare · 29th October 2008, 04:53 PM

Robert. I'm pretty sure this is the same knife. Sold it a couple of years ago. I've sold hundreds of knives on ebay, but remember everyone. Many were, and are hard to part with. I have a limited budget, so can't keep 'em all. Got to stay focused. But, when you love cold steel, it's hard to do. Looks like you repaired the scabbard, near the tip? The one I had was broken there. Can't tell in the pictures, but the knife I had was discolored at the point, from being in a fire. Yes, it had a Horn handle. The reason I wanted to believe the Italian connection, was the European style frog, and the "Romanesque" brass handle spacer. Seems that the frog was more tan colored? Whatever it is, it's a very nice piece. Good luck with a positive ID. M.P.

Robert · 29th October 2008, 05:30 PM

Yes I did repair the scabbard tip after it arrived to keep it from breaking off completely. The difference in color on the frog is due to the mink oil that I use to help preserve the leather on the scabbards of all the items that I have. The discoloration on the tip of the blade came disappeared when I cleaned off the small amount of rust that was starting to accumulate there. I know how you feel, I find it very hard to let go of any of my edged friends. Thank you again for your interest and help on this.

Robert

Gonzalo G · 31st October 2008, 02:38 AM

Robert, in my opinion this is an argenitienan facón, but I need to say that there are some unusual features related with this piece. The blade seems older than the hilt, which was a common constructive feature in the facones, as they were usually made with recycled blades. The general form of the hilt and the work there also seems to be argentinean. Is it not related to the mexican weapons at all, and I don´t believe it could be phillipine. The horn probably is black horn from argentinean cattle. The ring separating the two portions of horn could be chased or repousee, a common practice on argentinean metal work, and the acanthus leaves are also a comon decorative motifs in this country. The form of the pommel and the construction of the rivet also fits in the argentinean style.

Neverthless, the blade is not the most common to find on the facones, but not excluded form their style, as thet have single edged blades with or withoul a false edge, not necesarily form a bayonet. It could be made from the point of a broken sword The guard and the scabard are more strange, as cooper was not recommended among argentineans to make this pieces. It could be a latter fit, though a particular facón maker could decide to use this material not having another one at hand. The form of the guard is found in the classic facones, but it could be also a copy. The scabbar does resemble a military one, and there is a possibility it is not the original one fo this blade, but from a blade with a symetric spear point, but I can´t be sure form the pictures. What most calls my attention, is the fact that the facon was not used on a scabbard suspended form the belt, but crossed under it on the back side. So, the scabbard loop seems strange and out of place, and this makes me feel that, or the scabbard was added latter and keeped as it came, or that this weapon can be used by another type of person different from the criollo cowboy, or even that the knife could have another origin, though it fit in the facón type without problem.

Also, brass fitting are not as common as silver ones, but it can be a solution for a working facón made for a modest person with some income. The silver mounted facones are the top of the line, but do not reflect the general production of this weapons, only a portion of it. It´s difficul to establish the age of this piece, as the hilt style is very classic and it can be made form the 19th Century and forward, but I´have the feeling that it could be made after or around 1900´s, or maybe earlier. Sadly, we find more usually silver mounted facones than from the other kind of mounts, because the silver mounted were considered more worthy to be photographed, more valuable in terms of money, more attractive and, yes, more flashy. But in historic and museographic terms, I think the more modest facones are most representative of their kind and of their intended use in the daily life of the criollo cowboy. The silver mounted ones are more ceremonial items and a symbol of status among landowners to this date.

A very interesting piece. You should wiritte to Abel Domenech and conffirm the origin of this piece, and from the other "could be" argentinean pieces you have.

Domenech, Abel

dagasdeplata@yahoo.com

He´s a very open and kind person. I don´t think he´s is going to be bothered by your petition. On the contrary, maybe he could find very interesting your pieces, as he collects them.
Regards

Gonzalo

Rick · 31st October 2008, 04:52 AM

For what it's worth ; the blade profile reminds me a bit of a Chinese Bowie .

5th November 2007, 12:53 AM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Unknown Short Sword Or Big Knife I can't remember if I have ever posted this item before or not so if I have please remove this. This short sword or knife shows some age but I cannot place when or where it is from. The blade has a 4-1/2" unsharpened false edge. The guard is either red brass or copper. The grip is horn and the fittings are brass. The tang goes all the way through the hilt and is riveted over. The scabbard is leather but missing the drag and the band at the throat with the retaining loop but still has the original frog. Any help in identifying where this is from and of what age it is will be greatly appreciated. Thanks for any help offered. Blade length 13-1/8" Blade at widest 1-3/8" Blade at thickest 3/16" Hilt length 4-3/4" Robert Attached Images Last edited by Robert Coleman; 5th November 2007 at 02:59 AM.

29th October 2008, 12:16 AM	#10
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	A few more pictures. I hope these help. Attached Images

5th November 2007, 07:59 AM	#2
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 682	Hi Robert, Call me suspicious, but there is something not quite right with this knife. The condition and luster of the fittings is inconsistent with that of the blade and sheath. Other than this I cannot help. Have you tried consulting Bernard Levine? Cheers Chris

5th November 2007, 03:11 PM	#3
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hi Chris, I'm afraid that the way the fittings look is my fault. The fitting were quite dirty and starting to corrode when I found this knife so I cleaned them enough to remove most of the corrosion then waxed them. They are not as shinny as they look. Some of the shine is probably due to a combination of the wax and the flash on the camera when I took the pictures. If you look at the last picture you can still see some of the oxidation on the band going around the grip. I was trying not to over clean them. If I don't get any response here I will contact Mr Levine for his opinion. Thank you for input on this item.

5th November 2007, 07:25 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Robert it does look similar to a European hunting hanger .... but there is 'something' about it that seems SEA. Perhaps Dutch ?

6th November 2007, 02:33 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	It is not Filipino. I was originally thinking Mexican, high ranking officer.

6th November 2007, 02:34 AM	#6
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hi Katana, This is another one of the items that I have that I just have no idea on. It does have a SEA look to it but from where or when I have no clue. The scabbard is very similar in style and design to one on a tabak that I have. As far as Dutch so far I have not been able to find anything resembling this piece. Thank you your help and interest. Robert

6th November 2007, 02:51 AM	#7
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hi Jose, We must have been posting at the same time. Mexico, I'll start looking in that direction. Do you have any idea of age for this item? Thank you again for all your help. Robert

8th November 2007, 02:42 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Horn? Thank you Chris - I missed that one. In that case, it may be Filipino after all but in more Spanish style. Although - there was a lot of trade between Mexico and the Philippines for centuries....

29th October 2008, 04:47 AM	#11
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	I sold a very similar knife on ebay a while back. Is this it? Frog looks different. If same, was an ebay purchase. Seller said it was carried by an Italian officer, in Ethiopia, pre WWI?

29th October 2008, 05:36 AM	#12
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Trenchwarfare, Thank you for responding to this post and for the information. To be honest I really can't remember exactly how long that I have had this knife but I believe that I bought it about 2 years (or maybe a little longer) ago on ebay. The frog is the one that came with it when I bought it. Was the grip on the one that you had made of water buffalo horn? Thanks again. Robert

29th October 2008, 04:53 PM	#13
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Robert. I'm pretty sure this is the same knife. Sold it a couple of years ago. I've sold hundreds of knives on ebay, but remember everyone. Many were, and are hard to part with. I have a limited budget, so can't keep 'em all. Got to stay focused. But, when you love cold steel, it's hard to do. Looks like you repaired the scabbard, near the tip? The one I had was broken there. Can't tell in the pictures, but the knife I had was discolored at the point, from being in a fire. Yes, it had a Horn handle. The reason I wanted to believe the Italian connection, was the European style frog, and the "Romanesque" brass handle spacer. Seems that the frog was more tan colored? Whatever it is, it's a very nice piece. Good luck with a positive ID. M.P.

29th October 2008, 05:30 PM	#14
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Yes I did repair the scabbard tip after it arrived to keep it from breaking off completely. The difference in color on the frog is due to the mink oil that I use to help preserve the leather on the scabbards of all the items that I have. The discoloration on the tip of the blade came disappeared when I cleaned off the small amount of rust that was starting to accumulate there. I know how you feel, I find it very hard to let go of any of my edged friends. Thank you again for your interest and help on this. Robert

31st October 2008, 02:38 AM	#15
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Robert, in my opinion this is an argenitienan facón, but I need to say that there are some unusual features related with this piece. The blade seems older than the hilt, which was a common constructive feature in the facones, as they were usually made with recycled blades. The general form of the hilt and the work there also seems to be argentinean. Is it not related to the mexican weapons at all, and I don´t believe it could be phillipine. The horn probably is black horn from argentinean cattle. The ring separating the two portions of horn could be chased or repousee, a common practice on argentinean metal work, and the acanthus leaves are also a comon decorative motifs in this country. The form of the pommel and the construction of the rivet also fits in the argentinean style. Neverthless, the blade is not the most common to find on the facones, but not excluded form their style, as thet have single edged blades with or withoul a false edge, not necesarily form a bayonet. It could be made from the point of a broken sword The guard and the scabard are more strange, as cooper was not recommended among argentineans to make this pieces. It could be a latter fit, though a particular facón maker could decide to use this material not having another one at hand. The form of the guard is found in the classic facones, but it could be also a copy. The scabbar does resemble a military one, and there is a possibility it is not the original one fo this blade, but from a blade with a symetric spear point, but I can´t be sure form the pictures. What most calls my attention, is the fact that the facon was not used on a scabbard suspended form the belt, but crossed under it on the back side. So, the scabbard loop seems strange and out of place, and this makes me feel that, or the scabbard was added latter and keeped as it came, or that this weapon can be used by another type of person different from the criollo cowboy, or even that the knife could have another origin, though it fit in the facón type without problem. Also, brass fitting are not as common as silver ones, but it can be a solution for a working facón made for a modest person with some income. The silver mounted facones are the top of the line, but do not reflect the general production of this weapons, only a portion of it. It´s difficul to establish the age of this piece, as the hilt style is very classic and it can be made form the 19th Century and forward, but I´have the feeling that it could be made after or around 1900´s, or maybe earlier. Sadly, we find more usually silver mounted facones than from the other kind of mounts, because the silver mounted were considered more worthy to be photographed, more valuable in terms of money, more attractive and, yes, more flashy. But in historic and museographic terms, I think the more modest facones are most representative of their kind and of their intended use in the daily life of the criollo cowboy. The silver mounted ones are more ceremonial items and a symbol of status among landowners to this date. A very interesting piece. You should wiritte to Abel Domenech and conffirm the origin of this piece, and from the other "could be" argentinean pieces you have. Domenech, Abel dagasdeplata@yahoo.com He´s a very open and kind person. I don´t think he´s is going to be bothered by your petition. On the contrary, maybe he could find very interesting your pieces, as he collects them. Regards Gonzalo

31st October 2008, 04:52 AM	#16
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	For what it's worth ; the blade profile reminds me a bit of a Chinese Bowie .