A love from Indochina

Yannis · 21st May 2006, 04:25 PM

It was in a friend’s collection for some years. I always liked this puppy so recently I made a deal with my friend and I got it. And I want to share the pleasure with you. Also you may know something more (as usual

).

It is Vietnamese / Indochina but not the usual type. These swords are usually with curved blade and hilt with guard. This is straight and vintage.

The hilt looks like Chinese in the shape. It is made from one piece of elephant molar tooth (not ivory!) and repousse silver.

The blade is straight, double edge with central rib and a very long ricasso.

Scabbard is wood with big fittings of repousse silver and inlaid with a fine mosaic of mother pearl pieces with flowers, butterflies etc.

Ian · 21st May 2006, 05:15 PM

Yannis:

Gorgeous Vietnamese sword. Clearly modeled after a Chinese jian, but the blade seems more European in style with the ricasso. The central rib is also unusual for a Chinese blade. The finely inlaid decorative work on the scabbard resembles that seen on some of the so-called "parade sabers" from Vietnam in the 19th C. There are pictures of the latter on the Oriental Arms web site.

Just a lovely sword and quite rare. I know that you have just acquired it after pursuing it for some time, but if it should ever need another home ... well, you know, just give me a call ...

Ian.

Here are two examples from the Oriental Arms web site of Vietnamese swords that sold some time ago. The top one also has an elephant molar tooth for the handle and has silver mounts similar to your example.

Nick Wardigo · 21st May 2006, 05:40 PM

It's been a while since I've seen a Vietnamese kiem posted here (I think somebody did several years ago). As many forumites know, this is a subject very near and dear to my heart. I own a handful of examples myself, and I lectured on them two years ago in Timonium. For the past few years, I've been working on a dating system, but unfortunately I have only handled or studied photos of about 25 examples, so I'm far from anything conclusive.

I think this is a later example (early twentieth century) for several reasons.

First, the silverwork, while quite lovely, isn't quite up to the higher standards of earlier work. Second, the use of elephant molar for the handle seems to be a later affectation. Third, the mother-of-pearl inlay seems to convey a more realistic depiction of the animals, particularly the critter with the grapes, which I believe to be a tree shrew. I've noticed that, on earlier kiem examples, the depictions tend to be more stylized.

The blade is interesting, but I don't think it has a central rib per se. It is common to incise the blade with double fullers. On examples from the early nineteenth century (early Nguyen Dyansty), the blades are very narrow (about 3/4"), and the fullers are little more than incised lines (1/8" each, on the example I own). On examples from the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries (late Nguyen Dynasty), the blades are somewhat wider (7/8") with wider fullers (1/4"). I own three kiem from this period with nearly identical blades and have personally handled several more. I think the blade and fuller widening is an influence of French smallswords. The earlier blades were also of three-plate construction (san mai) whereas the later blades are not.

My point about YOUR blade is that it seems to be an even further exaggeration. It appears as though the fullering extends entirely off the edge. Technically, I suppose this could be considered "hollow ground", creating the central rib structure. There is an example of double kiem at the Metropolitan Museum of Art that comes very close to your example, but the fullering is just shy of the edge.

Yannis · 21st May 2006, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Wardigo

The blade is interesting, but I don't think it has a central rib per se. It is common to incise the blade with double fullers.

[...]
My point about YOUR blade is that it seems to be an even further exaggeration. It appears as though the fullering extends entirely off the edge. Technically, I suppose this could be considered "hollow ground", creating the central rib structure. There is an example of double kiem at the Metropolitan Museum of Art that comes very close to your example, but the fullering is just shy of the edge.

Thank you Nick. I accept anything you say about artistic style but I have a problem with the opinions about the blade. Maybe my English do not help but I cannot see the point. There is NO fuller on this blade. There is a clearly raised rib both sides.

My first thought was of a European small sword but this blade is hand forged. I surely don’t know why is like this and if it is rare.

If it helps, the blade is 680mm long, 29mm wide. Even without the rib it is diamond cross section. The ricasso is 66mm long and the rib is 6mm wide in the start.

Nick Wardigo · 21st May 2006, 09:05 PM

Hello Yannis,

Some images might help.

The first is a piece from my collection. It dates from the late 19th to early 20th century. Note the fairly wide double fullers (which is very common for kiem of this period).

Nick Wardigo · 21st May 2006, 09:11 PM

Now, THESE images are of a double kiem (song kiem) from the Metropolitan Museum of Art (I took the photos myself). Again, double fullers, but they are so pronounced as to almost completely take up the blade. If you look closely at the ricasso of your weapon, you'll see that stock was removed from the ricasso forward, that is, the fullers run completely off the blade.

Ordinarily, I'd say this is a case of perspective, as in, I see two very wide fullers, where you see the median ridge. However, because double fullers are SO prevalent on kiem, I think it's more correct to think of this as very exaggerrated fullering.

Nick Wardigo · 21st May 2006, 09:14 PM

photo 2

Titus Pullo · 21st May 2006, 09:47 PM

They are gorgeous anitque swords. Thanks for sharing! I've always love Southeast Asian weapons, particularly the mainland! They're kindda like the Roman, which made the hilt of their swords out of animals' bone. And what you do is you have to instill a will to kill into somebody, even the bravest person; you have to make it seem natural to make them professional and affective killers.

Yannis · 22nd May 2006, 01:23 AM

Nick, thank you for showing these photos. Now I got your point. But because these swords have fullers I cannot imagine fullers in mine. There are not. As I wrote before, it is quite the opposite. A diamond cross section!

Now that I have seen these swords I know that it is a local blade. Look this very long ricasso. But my bladesmith didnt wanted fullers. I dont know why. Maybe it was against his values. It is not wide sword but I think it is strong enough to hit with the edge and survive. And it is spring. A really deadly weapon in the hands of a connoisseur .

Mark · 22nd May 2006, 04:37 PM

All very beautiful.

What might have happened with Yannis' kiem is that the double fuller evolved to a raised ridge by someone taking the idea a step further. Looking at the photo of the ricasso, I see a basically diamond cross-section blade, meaning that the fullers seem to have run completely off the edge of the blade, leaving the ridge. I don't see any of the concave effect evident on the older blades Nick has posted (not to say it isn't there, but I just don't see it).

The elephant molar makes for a great effect in the grip.

21st May 2006, 04:25 PM	#1
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	A love from Indochina It was in a friend’s collection for some years. I always liked this puppy so recently I made a deal with my friend and I got it. And I want to share the pleasure with you. Also you may know something more (as usual ). It is Vietnamese / Indochina but not the usual type. These swords are usually with curved blade and hilt with guard. This is straight and vintage. The hilt looks like Chinese in the shape. It is made from one piece of elephant molar tooth (not ivory!) and repousse silver. The blade is straight, double edge with central rib and a very long ricasso. Scabbard is wood with big fittings of repousse silver and inlaid with a fine mosaic of mother pearl pieces with flowers, butterflies etc. Attached Images

21st May 2006, 05:15 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Outstanding !!!! Yannis: Gorgeous Vietnamese sword. Clearly modeled after a Chinese jian, but the blade seems more European in style with the ricasso. The central rib is also unusual for a Chinese blade. The finely inlaid decorative work on the scabbard resembles that seen on some of the so-called "parade sabers" from Vietnam in the 19th C. There are pictures of the latter on the Oriental Arms web site. Just a lovely sword and quite rare. I know that you have just acquired it after pursuing it for some time, but if it should ever need another home ... well, you know, just give me a call ... Ian. Here are two examples from the Oriental Arms web site of Vietnamese swords that sold some time ago. The top one also has an elephant molar tooth for the handle and has silver mounts similar to your example.

21st May 2006, 09:05 PM	#5
Nick Wardigo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 54	Hello Yannis, Some images might help. The first is a piece from my collection. It dates from the late 19th to early 20th century. Note the fairly wide double fullers (which is very common for kiem of this period). Attached Images

21st May 2006, 09:11 PM	#6
Nick Wardigo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 54	Now, THESE images are of a double kiem (song kiem) from the Metropolitan Museum of Art (I took the photos myself). Again, double fullers, but they are so pronounced as to almost completely take up the blade. If you look closely at the ricasso of your weapon, you'll see that stock was removed from the ricasso forward, that is, the fullers run completely off the blade. Ordinarily, I'd say this is a case of perspective, as in, I see two very wide fullers, where you see the median ridge. However, because double fullers are SO prevalent on kiem, I think it's more correct to think of this as very exaggerrated fullering. Attached Images

21st May 2006, 09:14 PM	#7
Nick Wardigo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 54	photo 2 Attached Images

21st May 2006, 05:40 PM	#3
Nick Wardigo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 54	It's been a while since I've seen a Vietnamese kiem posted here (I think somebody did several years ago). As many forumites know, this is a subject very near and dear to my heart. I own a handful of examples myself, and I lectured on them two years ago in Timonium. For the past few years, I've been working on a dating system, but unfortunately I have only handled or studied photos of about 25 examples, so I'm far from anything conclusive. I think this is a later example (early twentieth century) for several reasons. First, the silverwork, while quite lovely, isn't quite up to the higher standards of earlier work. Second, the use of elephant molar for the handle seems to be a later affectation. Third, the mother-of-pearl inlay seems to convey a more realistic depiction of the animals, particularly the critter with the grapes, which I believe to be a tree shrew. I've noticed that, on earlier kiem examples, the depictions tend to be more stylized. The blade is interesting, but I don't think it has a central rib per se. It is common to incise the blade with double fullers. On examples from the early nineteenth century (early Nguyen Dyansty), the blades are very narrow (about 3/4"), and the fullers are little more than incised lines (1/8" each, on the example I own). On examples from the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries (late Nguyen Dynasty), the blades are somewhat wider (7/8") with wider fullers (1/4"). I own three kiem from this period with nearly identical blades and have personally handled several more. I think the blade and fuller widening is an influence of French smallswords. The earlier blades were also of three-plate construction (san mai) whereas the later blades are not. My point about YOUR blade is that it seems to be an even further exaggeration. It appears as though the fullering extends entirely off the edge. Technically, I suppose this could be considered "hollow ground", creating the central rib structure. There is an example of double kiem at the Metropolitan Museum of Art that comes very close to your example, but the fullering is just shy of the edge.

21st May 2006, 09:47 PM	#8
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	They are gorgeous anitque swords. Thanks for sharing! I've always love Southeast Asian weapons, particularly the mainland! They're kindda like the Roman, which made the hilt of their swords out of animals' bone. And what you do is you have to instill a will to kill into somebody, even the bravest person; you have to make it seem natural to make them professional and affective killers. Last edited by Titus Pullo; 22nd May 2006 at 12:51 AM.

22nd May 2006, 01:23 AM	#9
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Nick, thank you for showing these photos. Now I got your point. But because these swords have fullers I cannot imagine fullers in mine. There are not. As I wrote before, it is quite the opposite. A diamond cross section! Now that I have seen these swords I know that it is a local blade. Look this very long ricasso. But my bladesmith didnt wanted fullers. I dont know why. Maybe it was against his values. It is not wide sword but I think it is strong enough to hit with the edge and survive. And it is spring. A really deadly weapon in the hands of a connoisseur .

22nd May 2006, 04:37 PM	#10
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	All very beautiful. What might have happened with Yannis' kiem is that the double fuller evolved to a raised ridge by someone taking the idea a step further. Looking at the photo of the ricasso, I see a basically diamond cross-section blade, meaning that the fullers seem to have run completely off the edge of the blade, leaving the ridge. I don't see any of the concave effect evident on the older blades Nick has posted (not to say it isn't there, but I just don't see it). The elephant molar makes for a great effect in the grip.