EARLY 17 TH SOLIGEN SMALL SWORD FOR COMMENT

[Cerjak]

Hi everybody ,

I would like to have opinion's of members about this small sword.
I wondering if it could be early 17 TH century or 16 TH.
Any comment on it will be welcome.

Cerjak

[Fernando K]

Hello:

Obviously, the inscription reads: MEFECIT - SOLINGEN and cross punch by imitating the mark is seen in the guns (barrel) Spanish

Affectionately. Fernando K

[fernando]

I wouldn't call that cross/anchor mark an imitation.
Certainly this is a composition. Shortened blade ... from a katsbalger ?
The grip wiring looks fine, with those turks heads. Maybe the pommel and crossguard are not the real thing .
Could you improve the picture of that mark in the forte ?

.

[Cerjak]

Hi Fernando

This is a close picture from the mark

[fernando]

Maybe through that image some member could ID this blade ...

[Jim McDougall]

I have not yet found a match for the stamped mark at the forte, but in Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", plates 2,3, pp.182,83) there are interesting sword examples which offer certain similarities I think pertinant to assessment of this example.

In #1, plate 2, the hilt with alternating curve (s shape) quillons is shown as a mid 16th century form with Swiss attribution suggested. The deeply channeled forte is remarkably like those on this example, and the 'makers' stamp in the same location in the center channel at the forte.

The blade in Wagner is however channeled in the same manner, and the lettered SOLINGEN stamped in two of the four blade channels, above and below in the same manner as the ME FECIT SOLINGEN on this example.
The serifed font seems similar and it is noted that the ME FECIT combination is contemporary to the period suggested. The quadrant placed crosses which appear to encapsulate the words ME FECIT and Solingen, are also consistant with the style of the period with names, phrases and mottos. The 'anchor' typically is considered to have key nuances with crosses and Christian imbuement in amuletic properties on blades.

The crosses and 'anchor' style device is also consistant with German blades of the period using Spanish names, marks and other features, as seen in the ENRIQUE COEL sword in plate 3 (1590-1610). On that sword the rather plain quillons without notable terminals are apparant, and the pommel type, turks heads and wire wrap seem consistant with Continental swords of the 17th century through.
The stamped mark en cartouche seems to be a crowned M(?) similar to and similar to those on Spanish and Italian blades. There was significant crossover and spurious use of these marks between both and further complicated by the use of these by German smiths.

Similar swords to this with the simple crossguard configuration are seen in Wallace collection and in cases with earlier blade, identified as German around 1600. This is not to say these are matching, but that these kinds of simpler hilt arming swords were present with less developed hilt forms, and suggesting likely 'recycling' armaments to servicability as required.

I would say this blade is plausibly mid to later 16th, and as suggested likely from an arming sword from Landsknecht context. It seems also likely that the blade may have been shortened as the sword was refurbished, probably in the 17th century.
While I would defer of course to Jasper for elaboration of Fernandos well placed suggestion, these are my own observations on this very outstanding example.

[Cerjak]

Dear Jim

Thank you very much for all your research about this sword and your great explanation and analyse ,it will be nice if you could post the scan from the related plates.
Best Regards

Jean-Luc

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I have not yet found a match for the stamped mark at the forte, but in Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", plates 2,3, pp.182,83) there are interesting sword examples which offer certain similarities I think pertinant to assessment of this example.

In #1, plate 2, the hilt with alternating curve (s shape) quillons is shown as a mid 16th century form with Swiss attribution suggested. The deeply channeled forte is remarkably like those on this example, and the 'makers' stamp in the same location in the center channel at the forte.

The blade in Wagner is however channeled in the same manner, and the lettered SOLINGEN stamped in two of the four blade channels, above and below in the same manner as the ME FECIT SOLINGEN on this example.
The serifed font seems similar and it is noted that the ME FECIT combination is contemporary to the period suggested. The quadrant placed crosses which appear to encapsulate the words ME FECIT and Solingen, are also consistant with the style of the period with names, phrases and mottos. The 'anchor' typically is considered to have key nuances with crosses and Christian imbuement in amuletic properties on blades.

The crosses and 'anchor' style device is also consistant with German blades of the period using Spanish names, marks and other features, as seen in the ENRIQUE COEL sword in plate 3 (1590-1610). On that sword the rather plain quillons without notable terminals are apparant, and the pommel type, turks heads and wire wrap seem consistant with Continental swords of the 17th century through.
The stamped mark en cartouche seems to be a crowned M(?) similar to and similar to those on Spanish and Italian blades. There was significant crossover and spurious use of these marks between both and further complicated by the use of these by German smiths.

Similar swords to this with the simple crossguard configuration are seen in Wallace collection and in cases with earlier blade, identified as German around 1600. This is not to say these are matching, but that these kinds of simpler hilt arming swords were present with less developed hilt forms, and suggesting likely 'recycling' armaments to servicability as required.

I would say this blade is plausibly mid to later 16th, and as suggested likely from an arming sword from Landsknecht context. It seems also likely that the blade may have been shortened as the sword was refurbished, probably in the 17th century.
While I would defer of course to Jasper for elaboration of Fernandos well placed suggestion, these are my own observations on this very outstanding example.

The stamped mark en cartouche seems to be a crowned M

Jim
This mark seems to be a crowned tower may be it will help you for ID

Regards

Cerjak

[Fernando K]

Hello:

In the catalog of the Royal Armoury, 1849 Gunsmiths is a Payroll of Toledo who forged swords, with drawings of his punches. At number 47, Juan Martinez Menchaca, there is a punch with a crowned M

Affectionately. Fernando K

[Fernando K]

Juan Martinez Menchaca. Styled also in Lisbon, Seville and Madrid. He lived in the early sixteenth century. This swordsmith had a son whom they named Menchaca the Younger, who was also swordsmither Toledo, and worked in Seville, Lisbon and Madrid. (same source)

Affectionately. Fernando K

[Dmitry]

The blade was probably period-shortened. I have seen several near identical Solingen blades with multi-fullered ricassos, dating to the end of 16th c. They reused many sword parts back then. Doesn't mean it's a recent composite, just a munitions-grade trooper's sword from the mid-17th c. with an earlier blade.

[Jim McDougall]

You're very welcome Jean-Luc, Im glad I could offer some useful info, and thank you for the great image of the stamp at forte. I will work at getting scans of the Wagner pages and enter them here.
Fernando K nicely done on identifying the mark!!!! I guess it was an M after all I dont have that catalog, only the Palomares plate from Calvert.

Jean-luc looks like you were already pretty much spot on when you posted this, and the blade is indeed about mid 16th century. As I mentioned earlier this seems to have been refurbished in the 17th century and quite likely was shortened at that time, as was often the case as arms were often reworked to supply troops.
Outstanding historical piece reflecting a sturdy working life! and interesting to see this makers stamp on a Solingen blade, though of course numerous Spanish makers stamps were copied in these times.

[cornelistromp]

the pommel and blade come from a well known cavalry type of broadsword from around 1600 used in Germany and the low lands.
see pictures with a similar type of blade an with the inscription mefecit solingen.

the blade is a bit worn, there are three channels on the ricasso and two underneath.
the original blade length of this type was around 75 cm, but there are also examples known to me with a shorter length fe a crabhilted sword in a privat collection made ​​by clemens horn (1580-1630) made around 1600.

the guard of the sword under discussion is unusual for the 17th century, the sword seems to me to be a composite one, however,done in the first half of the 17th century.


the mark probably comes from solingen designed to the examples from toledo, this was often done by the swordsmiths from solingen in the early 17th century.
(fe the marks of wilhelm Tesche, johannes Mumm, wilm small, Peter Hoppe eso)


best,
Jasper

[Cerjak]

Dear Jasper

Thank you very much for those precious informations,could you let me know from you have found those pictures
Regards

Cerjak

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Dear Jasper

Thank you very much for those precious informations,could you let me know from you have found those pictures
Regards

Cerjak

van Maurits naar Munster, author Jan Piet Puype

best,
jasper

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hello:

In the catalog of the Royal Armoury, 1849 Gunsmiths is a Payroll of Toledo who forged swords, with drawings of his punches. At number 47, Juan Martinez Menchaca, there is a punch with a crowned M

Affectionately. Fernando K

Thank you Fernando ,I have found also this name in this book "THE INDUSTRIAL ARTS"
IN SPAIN BY JUAN F. RIAÑO.
But I was unable to find any draw for the stamped mark ,Do you have the possibility to post a scan from this mark.

Best regards

Jean-Luc
Names of the Sword Makers of Toledo.
The numbers given correspond to the plates of their marks, given in "Catalogo de la Real Armeria."
1. Alonso de Sahagun, el viejo, 1570.
2. Alonso de Sahagun, el mozo.
3. Alonso Perez.
4. Alonso de los Rios; he also worked at Cordova.
5. Alonso de Cava.
6. Andres Martinez.
7. Andres Herraez; he also worked at Cuenca.
8. Andres Munesten; worked at Calatayud.
9. Andres Garcia.
10. Antonio de Baena.
11. Antonio Gutierrez.
12. Antonio Gutierrez, a son of the former.
13. Antonio Ruiz, 1520; he used the initial letter of his name.
14. Adrian de Zafra; worked at Sn. Clemente.
15. Bartolomé de Nieva.
16. Casaldo y Campañeros; worked at Cuellar and Badajoz.
17. Domingo de Orozco.
18. Domingo Maestre, el viejo.
19. Domingo Maestre, el mozo.
20. Domingo Rodriguez.
21. Domingo Sanchez; called el Tigerero.
22. Domingo de Aguirre.
23. Domingo de Lama.
24. Domingo Corrientes; worked also at Madrid.
25. Fabrian de Zafra; hijo de Adrian.
26. Francisco Ruiz, el viejo, 1617.
27. Francisco Ruiz, el mozo.
28. Francisco Gomez.
29. Francisco de Zamora; worked also at Seville.
30. Francisco de Alcozer; worked at Madrid.
31. Francisco Lurdi.
32. Francisco Cordiu.
33. Francisco Perez.
34. Giraldo Reliz.
35. Gonzalo Simon, 1617.
36. Gabriel Martinez.
37. Gil de Almau.
38. Hortuño de Aguirre, 1604.
39. Juan Martin.
40. Juan de Leizalde; worked at Seville.
41. Juan Martinez, el viejo.
42. Juan Martinez, el mozo, 1617.
43. Juan de Almau, 1550.
44. Juan de Toro.
45. Juan Ruiz.
46. Juan Martinez de Garata.
47. Juan Martinez Menchaca; he lived at the beginning of the 16th century, and worked at Lisbon, Seville, and Madrid.
48. Juan Ros.
49. Juan Moreno.
50. Juan de Saludo.
51. Juan de Meladoria.
52. Juan de Vargas.
53. Juan de la Horta, 1545.
54. Juanes de Toledo.
55. Juanes de Algruniva.
56. Juanes de Muleto.
57. Juanes, el viejo.
58. Juanes de Uriza.
59. Julian del Rey, the Moor; he worked for Boabdil, King of Granada, 15th century.
60. Julian Garcia; worked also at Cuenca.
61. Julian de Zamora.
62. José Gomez.
63. Jusepe de la Hera, el viejo.
64. Jusepe de la Hera, el mozo.
65. Jusepe de la Hera, el nieto.
66. Jusepe de la Hera, el visnieto.
67. Jusepe del Haza.
68. Ignacio Fernandez, el viejo.
69. Ignacio Fernandez, el mozo.
70. Luis de Nieves.
71. Luis de Ayala.
72. Luis de Belmonte.
73. Luis de Sahagun.
74. Luis de Sahagun.
75. Luis de Nieva; worked at Calatayud.
76. Lupus Aguado, 1567.
77. Miguel Cantero, 1564.
78. Miguel Sanchez.
79. Melchor Suarez; worked at Lisbon.
80. Nicolas Hortuño de Aguirre, 1637.
81. Pedro de Toro.
82. Pedro de Arechiga.
83. Pedro Lopez; worked at Orgaz.
84. Pedro de Lerzama; worked at Seville.
85. Pedro de Lazaretea; worked at Bilbao.
86. Pedro de Orozco.
87. Pedro de Belmonte.
88. Roque Hernandez.
Sarabal; used no mark.
89. Sebastian Hernandez, el viejo, 1637.
90. Sebastian Hernandez, el mozo; he worked also at Seville.
91. Silvestre Nieto.
92. Silvestre Nieto.
93. Tomas de Ayala, 1625.
94. Zamorano, el Toledano.

[Fernando K]

Hello, Cerjak

OK. Must be 48 hours.

Affectionately. Fernando K

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hello, Cerjak

OK. Must be 48 hours.

Affectionately. Fernando K

Fernando

No problem I can wait ..
Thank you
Jean-Luc

[Fernando K]

Hi, Cerjak

Fernando K

[Cerjak]

Thank you Fernando k and in the same time I have found this doc too..

[Fernando K]

Hello, Cerjak:

The source is the same, the catalog of the Royal Armoury, printed in 1762

Sincerely, Fernando K