Indian sword for ID

ariel · 6th December 2011, 10:23 PM

Just by looking at it, the form of the blade seems to be totally unsuitable for battle. But here it is.... Please, does anyone here has any idea what on earth is it, what's the name, where from, and whatever else comes to mind....

VANDOO · 7th December 2011, 01:33 AM

THE HILT LOOKS LIKE THOSE USED ON INDIA FARINGI (SPELLING?) THE BLADE LOOKS LIKE A NIGHTMARE FOR THE ONE WHO HAS TO MAKE A SCABBARD FOR IT. EITHER THAT OR SOMEONE TRIED TO RUN THROUGH SUPERMAN WITH IT.

I HAVE SEEN THIS SORT OF SHAPE ON BLADES FROM INDIA AND PERSIA BUT DON'T KNOW THE STORY OR REASONS FOR MAKEING THEM. MOST LIKELY SOMETHING TO DO WITH VARIOUS BELIEFS ABOUT THE SNAKE.

A NICE CONVERSATION PIECE AND NOT EVERYONE HAS ONE.

Stan S. · 7th December 2011, 02:37 AM

What you have here is a very cool khanda hilted ritual/temple/sacrificial sword most likely from Southern India. While its usefulness for sacrifices is questionable at best (although I could see the in-curve in the middle of the blade to be well suited for cattle decapitation) , these kind of swords are quite scarse and thus are always desirable. A unique and beutiful piece!

Jim McDougall · 7th December 2011, 07:21 AM

These kinds of doubly recurved blades are typically relatively modern interpretative weapons which are best described as South Indian flamboyant or 'temple' swords typically associated with the Nayars (a former military caste in Malabar regions). The extravagant blade forms, such as with this example, described by Rawson as 'deep bellied kopis form' is similar to one depicted as a 'virigal executioners sword of the 10th c.'. A virigal is a Hindu tombstone for military heroes (Rawson, p.41). It is noted that the sword design is derived from sculptures at Barabadur in Java.

These swords are typically regarded as for ceremonial or processional use and that "..display in the outward and visible aspect of the forms was what was sought " (Rawson, p.39) and that "...imaginative extravagance was allowed free play and that display was given an overwhelming preponderance over use". Further noted was that thier forms must be regarded as the products of fantasy rather than use.

These kinds of iconographic atavism are seen often in ethnographic weapons, and while the Hindu baskethilt suggests a weapon probably considerably antedating most of the flamboyant Nayar temple weapons, its overall intention seems to fall in place with similar uses. As far as I have known these weapons have not been used in sacrificial ceremonies, though as a processional type weapon this lacks the familiar piercings for attaching jingles.

For those who chose to read further:
"The Indian Sword" Philip Rawson, 1968
"Siviganga Swords" C.S.Clarke, 'Burlington Magazine', 1916,London
"Castes and Tribes of Southern India" E.Thurston, Madras, 1909 (Nayars)

Sajen · 7th December 2011, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It is noted that the sword design is derived from sculptures at Barabadur in Java.

Hello Jim,

do you mean Borobudur the Mahayana Buddist monument on Java?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borobudur

Regards,

Detlef

Jim McDougall · 7th December 2011, 08:46 PM

Yes, that is the alternate spelling, same place. I am not certain which sculpture or frieze the author refers to, but the point is that many of these unusual shapes in blades seem derived iconographically from many of the temples and viragals from early times. There is a great deal of emphasis in the stylized character and flamboyance in many of the blade forms which while quite effective in artistic setting, was not likely practical in actual use. This is often the case when trying to understand the manner of actual use in these ancient forms, but in cases of traditional display they of course would not be required to serve other than for such ceremonial displays.

Best

Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 13th March 2014, 06:50 PM

Wandoo,
The two swords you show both seem to have a cho, while the other swords shown dont.
Does anyone know why?
Jens

6th December 2011, 10:23 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Indian sword for ID Just by looking at it, the form of the blade seems to be totally unsuitable for battle. But here it is.... Please, does anyone here has any idea what on earth is it, what's the name, where from, and whatever else comes to mind.... Attached Images

7th December 2011, 02:37 AM	#3
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	What you have here is a very cool khanda hilted ritual/temple/sacrificial sword most likely from Southern India. While its usefulness for sacrifices is questionable at best (although I could see the in-curve in the middle of the blade to be well suited for cattle decapitation) , these kind of swords are quite scarse and thus are always desirable. A unique and beutiful piece! Last edited by Stan S.; 7th December 2011 at 05:08 AM.

7th December 2011, 01:33 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE HILT LOOKS LIKE THOSE USED ON INDIA FARINGI (SPELLING?) THE BLADE LOOKS LIKE A NIGHTMARE FOR THE ONE WHO HAS TO MAKE A SCABBARD FOR IT. EITHER THAT OR SOMEONE TRIED TO RUN THROUGH SUPERMAN WITH IT. I HAVE SEEN THIS SORT OF SHAPE ON BLADES FROM INDIA AND PERSIA BUT DON'T KNOW THE STORY OR REASONS FOR MAKEING THEM. MOST LIKELY SOMETHING TO DO WITH VARIOUS BELIEFS ABOUT THE SNAKE. A NICE CONVERSATION PIECE AND NOT EVERYONE HAS ONE.

7th December 2011, 07:21 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	These kinds of doubly recurved blades are typically relatively modern interpretative weapons which are best described as South Indian flamboyant or 'temple' swords typically associated with the Nayars (a former military caste in Malabar regions). The extravagant blade forms, such as with this example, described by Rawson as 'deep bellied kopis form' is similar to one depicted as a 'virigal executioners sword of the 10th c.'. A virigal is a Hindu tombstone for military heroes (Rawson, p.41). It is noted that the sword design is derived from sculptures at Barabadur in Java. These swords are typically regarded as for ceremonial or processional use and that "..display in the outward and visible aspect of the forms was what was sought " (Rawson, p.39) and that "...imaginative extravagance was allowed free play and that display was given an overwhelming preponderance over use". Further noted was that thier forms must be regarded as the products of fantasy rather than use. These kinds of iconographic atavism are seen often in ethnographic weapons, and while the Hindu baskethilt suggests a weapon probably considerably antedating most of the flamboyant Nayar temple weapons, its overall intention seems to fall in place with similar uses. As far as I have known these weapons have not been used in sacrificial ceremonies, though as a processional type weapon this lacks the familiar piercings for attaching jingles. For those who chose to read further: "The Indian Sword" Philip Rawson, 1968 "Siviganga Swords" C.S.Clarke, 'Burlington Magazine', 1916,London "Castes and Tribes of Southern India" E.Thurston, Madras, 1909 (Nayars)

7th December 2011, 08:46 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Yes, that is the alternate spelling, same place. I am not certain which sculpture or frieze the author refers to, but the point is that many of these unusual shapes in blades seem derived iconographically from many of the temples and viragals from early times. There is a great deal of emphasis in the stylized character and flamboyance in many of the blade forms which while quite effective in artistic setting, was not likely practical in actual use. This is often the case when trying to understand the manner of actual use in these ancient forms, but in cases of traditional display they of course would not be required to serve other than for such ceremonial displays. Best Jim

13th March 2014, 06:50 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Wandoo, The two swords you show both seem to have a cho, while the other swords shown dont. Does anyone know why? Jens