PALEMBANG HILT AND KERIS

ganjawulung · 15th May 2010, 07:04 PM

I have a problem with this Palembang keris and hilt. All I want to do is to clean the black-rusty blade with "kelapa" (coconut) husk. But unfortunately, the hilt is fixed firmly to the pesi. Too firm, and not possible for you to open or even to turn the hilt with your bare hand...

What would you suggest me to do: (1) Must I open the hilt first (2) but how to open such firm fixation? Or (3) just submerge all -- blade and hilt -- to the "blandongan" full with coconut husk? (4) Or clean the blade, without unfix the hilt? How?

Thanks in advance for your advice,

GANJAWULUNG

Sajen · 15th May 2010, 09:10 PM

Hello Ganjawulung,

do you have tried to heat the blade? Most of the time I have had success by this. Heat the blade and try careful to move the hilt. Sometimes you have to repeat this many times until the hilt become incoherent.

Moshah · 15th May 2010, 09:20 PM

Salam pak ganja,

Could u post some close up pix of that lovely hilt?

Is it ivory?

kai · 15th May 2010, 10:00 PM

Hello Pak Ganja,

Beautiful hilt - very expressive fangs! Sure looks ivory.

The hilt could be still fixed with resin - heat will easily do to remove the blade.

The pesi could also be heavily corroded and rust holding the hilt in place. Although there is a chance of damage, it would IMHO still be better to remove it, especially before soaking it since water and rust won't do any good and there's a chance that the hilt may get cracked from accumulating rust eventually.

Are there any cracks visible close the hilt's base? If not, it should be pretty safe to apply gentle heat to the sorsoran area (holding the hilt/selut with a heat-resistant glove helps to avoid heating the hilt). When hot, gently try to twist the hilt. If it doesn't move, let it cool completely and reheat/cool several times. I'm sure you've utilized this procedure quite a few times already...

Regards,
Kai

ganjawulung · 15th May 2010, 11:51 PM

Thanks Detlef, Moshah and Kai,

For this time being, I still keep it like it is. With the hilt firmly fixed. IMHO, it is not ivory but "duyung" or dugong hilt. You may look at the different brownish and yellowish colour of it. Images below, are different views of this hilt. The size, it seems bigger than usual...

I will try the last step to open the hilt. Then, what would you suggest the way to clean the blade without unfixing the hilt, please?

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 16th May 2010, 12:27 AM

Pak Ganja, removal of a firmly fixed hilt is not usually a problem.

If you use a candle or small kerosene lamp for the heat source, there is no possibility of doing damage to the hilt, provided you are reasonably careful.

I suggest that you should work with bare hands, so that you can feel how hot the blade and hilt become during the process, this will safeguard against over heating.

I can understand your caution with attempts to remove the hilt on this keris. I have had two Palembang tangs break while attempting to remove a rusted on hilt. I suspect that perhaps the adhesive that they used to use in that area may have had a corrosive effect.

If this were my keris I would try the heat first, but I would not exert excessive force in trying to twist it off.

If you are bound and determined not to remove the hilt, the blade can be cleaned by repeated brushing with a mild acid, and rinse with water. Freshly squeezed lime juice will do it.

It would probably be a good idea to coat the selut with nail polish, and to wrap the hilt with plastic cling wrap before you start. The nail polish will come off easily with acetone, when you finish the job.

ganjawulung · 16th May 2010, 12:56 AM

Thanks Alan,

With heat treatment, although only with small kerosene lamp ("teplok" in javanese), doesn't it hurt the blade? Because I like so much the blade too..

GANJAWULUNG

Sajen · 16th May 2010, 02:33 AM

No problem when you don't over heat the blade, after warangan it don't will be visible anymore.

BTW, very nice hilt and blade IMHO, is there a sheat?

Rick · 16th May 2010, 02:54 AM

Cover the area to be heated tightly with aluminum foil.
Heat transfer with no soot .

ganjawulung · 16th May 2010, 04:45 AM

Thanks Rick for the advice,

I would try to be brave to unfix it... but step by step. Maybe I would try to "steam" it first, not to heat it in direct flame...

@sajen, yes Detlef, it has a Palembang warangka. But still in repairement of the "gandar" side, broken a bit. Sure, later I will post the foto of it after it is ready..

Thanks, for all the advice.

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 16th May 2010, 05:01 AM

The heat from a candle or a small kero lamp (senthir) will definitely not hurt the blade.

Yes, it will get very dirty, but the soot just washes off with turps, and you need to clean and stain the blade anyway.

I would not go anywhere near it with steam, because unlike a direct heat, the steam is not controllable, and you do not want that hilt to get bathed in steam.

I've removed all sorts of hilts with heat, as I describe, not just keris hilts, but pedangs, tombaks, badiks, western custom knives, old western cutlery --- all sorts of blades from all sorts of hilts with all sorts of adhesives, including modern epoxies. Because I've had so much experience I usually use a propane torch when I'm at home, but I will never recommend that to somebody new at this. A candle or a little kero lamp will do exactly the same job, its just dirtier --- which doesn't matter at all, and slower, which also doesn't matter.

Afterthought:- even if you did get the blade really hot, you've got to take up to straw-blue to draw the temper from heat-treated steel, and this part of a keris blade is not heat-treated anyway, its still soft, so there's no temper to draw. Don't forget:- you're only heating the sorsoran. You just can't get it to this sort of heat with a candle. Direct heat will not hurt it.

ganjawulung · 16th May 2010, 10:11 AM

Not succeeded yet..
I've tried the first way (1) steamed the blade upon a pot of water (of course, it was an unused pot) for more than an hour -- hot, cold, then hot, and cold etc. Not moved at all. And (2) I took a big risk by heating the blade upon a small flame of kitchen gas -- hot, cold, and hot, cold. Not succeeded too... Very "stubborn"... (image below)

Then, I let it as it is again. And thinking of trying to clean the blade without submerging the hilt, of course... Still thinking how to do it.

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 16th May 2010, 12:16 PM

If I owned this keris I would not be brave enough to use either of these methods, and I cannot see how sufficient heat could be applied to the blade with either method to get the tang hot enough to encourage the tang to come free.

Buy a candle.

Sajen · 16th May 2010, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

If I owned this keris I would not be brave enough to use either of these methods, and I cannot see how sufficient heat could be applied to the blade with either method to get the tang hot enough to encourage the tang to come free.

Buy a candle.

Agree, don't capitulate.

Moshah · 17th May 2010, 03:54 AM

Wow, very risky! I really hope you to be careful

I just wonder was pak Ganja's hilt is the one called "palembang hulu burung" or was the attached pix is?

What is the difference between both (except the material difference)? I can see some similar carvings pattern there, but the style is not the same...

thanks in advance pals for letting me know...

ganjawulung · 17th May 2010, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Buy a candle.

Not succeeded yet, Alan. Not moved at all...

GANJAWULUNG

ganjawulung · 23rd May 2010, 02:59 AM

Thanks Alan, and all,

The hilt is already unfixed, and I've cleaned the blade too....

GANJAWULUNG

ganjawulung · 23rd May 2010, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshah

I just wonder was pak Ganja's hilt is the one called "palembang hulu burung" or was the attached pix is?

What is the difference between both (except the material difference)? I can see some similar carvings pattern there, but the style is not the same...

Dear Moshah,
Honestly, I am not the expert on this. Just collecting. I think Shahrial (Alamshah) could explain it well.

GANJAWULUNG

DAHenkel · 23rd May 2010, 04:03 AM

Moshah - There are a lot of variations of keris hilts from South Sumatra. Pak Ganja's hilt is generally understood to be a Palembang hilt. Yours on the other hand probably comes from somewhere else in South Sumatra - I suspect Lampung. I recall a couple similar examples provenanced to Lampung anyway. However there is so little information on these areas and unless or until we find a knowledgable local collector the area will remain imperfectly understood. I was just in Palembang and visited all the main local museums but unfortunately the only weapons display - in the Sultan Mahmud Badruddin Museum - was small and included several obviously non-Palembang pieces. It was not an edifying experience...

ganjawulung · 23rd May 2010, 06:01 AM

Thanks Dave,

I've sent message to Karaeng Kesuma in facebook to join this discussion, if he won't mind. He stays in Lampung, and has a couple of Sumatran keris photo collection in his facebook...

Btw, this Palembang hilt. Could I compose it with this silver pendokok?

GANJAWULUNG

kai · 23rd May 2010, 07:52 AM

Hello Pak Ganja,

Congrats, I like the pamor!

Did perseverance do the job or how did you got the hilt off?

Quote:

Btw, this Palembang hilt. Could I compose it with this silver pendokok?

Looks perfectly fine to me. Most Palembang keris, even with lesser hilts, seem to come with silver pendokok and I was already wondering about the combination of such a finely carved ivory hilt and a fairly simple brass pendokok. Any hints from the condition of the pesi and materials utilized to fix the hulu on how old the combination might be?

Regards,
Kai

kai · 23rd May 2010, 08:14 AM

Quote:

IMHO, it is not ivory but "duyung" or dugong hilt.

Forgot to comment earlier: Ivory is a general term and includes other tooth from animals like dugong, walrus, hippotamus, etc.

P.S.: It would be great if you could invite more Indonesian keris collectors to our little warung kopi! We all realize that the language barrier can be a challenge. Every contribution would be valuable and appreciated though!

BTW, are there any good translation services like babelfish that cover English to Bahasa Indonesia or Malay?

Regards,
Kai

ganjawulung · 23rd May 2010, 08:50 AM

Yes Kai,

It took a lot of patience, to repeat the same process -- hot, cold, hot, cold. More than any javanese keris. Yes, the "candle method" that Alan suggested, helped much the process.

The fixing material, seems to be traditional -- blackish, and rusty laquer. I don't know precisely what it is. Maybe like traditional javanese 'lacquer' (I don't know to describe it too), but more rusty... (picture below)

The "hard" ivory -- not elephant tusk -- also make the hilt difficult to remove, because of the narrow hole, and the rusty lacquer material. The pesi is shorter than javanese pesi, but still in good condition.

I've asked our Indonesian college to join this discussion group, but usually they participate passively, reading this discussion. They have some discussion group in Bahasa -- like FDK (Forum Diskusi Keris) in Yahoo with more than 200 members, and also you may see in Facebook too, there are some small groups of discussion. In Bahasa, of course...

GANJAWULUNG

Alam Shah · 23rd May 2010, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

Moshah - There are a lot of variations of keris hilts from South Sumatra. Pak Ganja's hilt is generally understood to be a Palembang hilt. Yours on the other hand probably comes from somewhere else in South Sumatra - I suspect Lampung. I recall a couple similar examples provenanced to Lampung anyway. However there is so little information on these areas and unless or until we find a knowledgable local collector the area will remain imperfectly understood. I was just in Palembang and visited all the main local museums but unfortunately the only weapons display - in the Sultan Mahmud Badruddin Museum - was small and included several obviously non-Palembang pieces. It was not an edifying experience...

Hi, agreed with Dave's comments about both hilts. Palembang is a tricky place, as we know, it's a centre where many regional forms meet. There are locals in various keris/study groups, concentrating on the local forms. Karaeng Kesuma, is one such collector. There are others..

Sajen · 23rd May 2010, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Thanks Dave,

I've sent message to Karaeng Kesuma in facebook to join this discussion, if he won't mind. He stays in Lampung, and has a couple of Sumatran keris photo collection in his facebook...

Btw, this Palembang hilt. Could I compose it with this silver pendokok?

GANJAWULUNG

Hello Pak Ganja,

the silver pendokok look nice with the hilt and blade. Do you want to give a warangan to the blade or you want to let it unstained?

Regards,

Detlef

Moshah · 23rd May 2010, 02:37 PM

Thanks Dave, pak Ganja and bro Alam for those inputs.

I asked because two things:

1) Normally lampung hilts have long, curved beaks.

2) The hilt picture I posted have similar motives to pak Ganja's ivory hilt motives.

I didn't doubt it will be from Lampung, but was the curves on the posted hilt's body is normal for it's kind?

I really know very little about lampung hilts, so any inputs from all of you are really helpful...

Sajen · 23rd May 2010, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshah

Thanks Dave, pak Ganja and bro Alam for those inputs.

I asked because two things:

1) Normally lampung hilts have long, curved beaks.

2) The hilt picture I posted have similar motives to pak Ganja's ivory hilt motives.

I didn't doubt it will be from Lampung, but was the curves on the posted hilt's body is normal for it's kind?

I really know very little about lampung hilts, so any inputs from all of you are really helpful...

Hello Moshah,

there are a lot of different styles of this south sumatran hilt. But I also don't know how to differentiate between.

Here examples from my collection. The pictures are taken fast so I apologize for the quality.

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 23rd May 2010, 03:15 PM

And there is a hilt type with similar features but also with style elements from Cirebon. So I am never sure from where this hilt coming.

Moshah · 23rd May 2010, 04:27 PM

Hi Detlef,

Thanks for those beautiful hilts pics!

i think it bears similarities to your hilt no 1 (the first pix), especially the carving motives.

Is that first pix hilt was a true blue lampung hilt?

Could u post the picture of the first one, this time from the back of the hilt?

Sorry for the inconveniences...

Sajen · 23rd May 2010, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshah

Hi Detlef,

Thanks for those beautiful hilts pics!

i think it bears similarities to your hilt no 1 (the first pix), especially the carving motives.

Is that first pix hilt was a true blue lampung hilt?

Could u post the picture of the first one, this time from the back of the hilt?

Sorry for the inconveniences...

Hi Moshah,

I received the hilt together with the keris and I I ever have thought that it is a Palembang keris.

Here the requested pictures. The keris was shown in this thread before:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10998

Regards,

Detlef

15th May 2010, 07:04 PM	#1
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	PALEMBANG HILT AND KERIS I have a problem with this Palembang keris and hilt. All I want to do is to clean the black-rusty blade with "kelapa" (coconut) husk. But unfortunately, the hilt is fixed firmly to the pesi. Too firm, and not possible for you to open or even to turn the hilt with your bare hand... What would you suggest me to do: (1) Must I open the hilt first (2) but how to open such firm fixation? Or (3) just submerge all -- blade and hilt -- to the "blandongan" full with coconut husk? (4) Or clean the blade, without unfix the hilt? How? Thanks in advance for your advice, GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

15th May 2010, 11:51 PM	#5
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Thanks Detlef, Moshah and Kai, For this time being, I still keep it like it is. With the hilt firmly fixed. IMHO, it is not ivory but "duyung" or dugong hilt. You may look at the different brownish and yellowish colour of it. Images below, are different views of this hilt. The size, it seems bigger than usual... I will try the last step to open the hilt. Then, what would you suggest the way to clean the blade without unfixing the hilt, please? GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

16th May 2010, 12:56 AM	#7
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Thanks Alan, With heat treatment, although only with small kerosene lamp ("teplok" in javanese), doesn't it hurt the blade? Because I like so much the blade too.. GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

16th May 2010, 10:11 AM	#12
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Not succeeded yet.. I've tried the first way (1) steamed the blade upon a pot of water (of course, it was an unused pot) for more than an hour -- hot, cold, then hot, and cold etc. Not moved at all. And (2) I took a big risk by heating the blade upon a small flame of kitchen gas -- hot, cold, and hot, cold. Not succeeded too... Very "stubborn"... (image below) Then, I let it as it is again. And thinking of trying to clean the blade without submerging the hilt, of course... Still thinking how to do it. GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

17th May 2010, 03:54 AM	#15
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Wow, very risky! I really hope you to be careful I just wonder was pak Ganja's hilt is the one called "palembang hulu burung" or was the attached pix is? What is the difference between both (except the material difference)? I can see some similar carvings pattern there, but the style is not the same... thanks in advance pals for letting me know... Attached Images

15th May 2010, 09:10 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,788	Hello Ganjawulung, do you have tried to heat the blade? Most of the time I have had success by this. Heat the blade and try careful to move the hilt. Sometimes you have to repeat this many times until the hilt become incoherent.

15th May 2010, 09:20 PM	#3
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Salam pak ganja, Could u post some close up pix of that lovely hilt? Is it ivory?

15th May 2010, 10:00 PM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Pak Ganja, Beautiful hilt - very expressive fangs! Sure looks ivory. The hilt could be still fixed with resin - heat will easily do to remove the blade. The pesi could also be heavily corroded and rust holding the hilt in place. Although there is a chance of damage, it would IMHO still be better to remove it, especially before soaking it since water and rust won't do any good and there's a chance that the hilt may get cracked from accumulating rust eventually. Are there any cracks visible close the hilt's base? If not, it should be pretty safe to apply gentle heat to the sorsoran area (holding the hilt/selut with a heat-resistant glove helps to avoid heating the hilt). When hot, gently try to twist the hilt. If it doesn't move, let it cool completely and reheat/cool several times. I'm sure you've utilized this procedure quite a few times already... Regards, Kai

16th May 2010, 12:27 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Pak Ganja, removal of a firmly fixed hilt is not usually a problem. If you use a candle or small kerosene lamp for the heat source, there is no possibility of doing damage to the hilt, provided you are reasonably careful. I suggest that you should work with bare hands, so that you can feel how hot the blade and hilt become during the process, this will safeguard against over heating. I can understand your caution with attempts to remove the hilt on this keris. I have had two Palembang tangs break while attempting to remove a rusted on hilt. I suspect that perhaps the adhesive that they used to use in that area may have had a corrosive effect. If this were my keris I would try the heat first, but I would not exert excessive force in trying to twist it off. If you are bound and determined not to remove the hilt, the blade can be cleaned by repeated brushing with a mild acid, and rinse with water. Freshly squeezed lime juice will do it. It would probably be a good idea to coat the selut with nail polish, and to wrap the hilt with plastic cling wrap before you start. The nail polish will come off easily with acetone, when you finish the job.

16th May 2010, 02:33 AM	#8
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,788	No problem when you don't over heat the blade, after warangan it don't will be visible anymore. BTW, very nice hilt and blade IMHO, is there a sheat?

16th May 2010, 02:54 AM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Cover the area to be heated tightly with aluminum foil. Heat transfer with no soot .

16th May 2010, 04:45 AM	#10
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Thanks Rick for the advice, I would try to be brave to unfix it... but step by step. Maybe I would try to "steam" it first, not to heat it in direct flame... @sajen, yes Detlef, it has a Palembang warangka. But still in repairement of the "gandar" side, broken a bit. Sure, later I will post the foto of it after it is ready.. Thanks, for all the advice. GANJAWULUNG

16th May 2010, 05:01 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	The heat from a candle or a small kero lamp (senthir) will definitely not hurt the blade. Yes, it will get very dirty, but the soot just washes off with turps, and you need to clean and stain the blade anyway. I would not go anywhere near it with steam, because unlike a direct heat, the steam is not controllable, and you do not want that hilt to get bathed in steam. I've removed all sorts of hilts with heat, as I describe, not just keris hilts, but pedangs, tombaks, badiks, western custom knives, old western cutlery --- all sorts of blades from all sorts of hilts with all sorts of adhesives, including modern epoxies. Because I've had so much experience I usually use a propane torch when I'm at home, but I will never recommend that to somebody new at this. A candle or a little kero lamp will do exactly the same job, its just dirtier --- which doesn't matter at all, and slower, which also doesn't matter. Afterthought:- even if you did get the blade really hot, you've got to take up to straw-blue to draw the temper from heat-treated steel, and this part of a keris blade is not heat-treated anyway, its still soft, so there's no temper to draw. Don't forget:- you're only heating the sorsoran. You just can't get it to this sort of heat with a candle. Direct heat will not hurt it.

16th May 2010, 12:16 PM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	If I owned this keris I would not be brave enough to use either of these methods, and I cannot see how sufficient heat could be applied to the blade with either method to get the tang hot enough to encourage the tang to come free. Buy a candle.

23rd May 2010, 02:59 AM	#17
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Thanks Alan, and all, The hilt is already unfixed, and I've cleaned the blade too.... GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

23rd May 2010, 04:03 AM	#19
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Moshah - There are a lot of variations of keris hilts from South Sumatra. Pak Ganja's hilt is generally understood to be a Palembang hilt. Yours on the other hand probably comes from somewhere else in South Sumatra - I suspect Lampung. I recall a couple similar examples provenanced to Lampung anyway. However there is so little information on these areas and unless or until we find a knowledgable local collector the area will remain imperfectly understood. I was just in Palembang and visited all the main local museums but unfortunately the only weapons display - in the Sultan Mahmud Badruddin Museum - was small and included several obviously non-Palembang pieces. It was not an edifying experience...

23rd May 2010, 06:01 AM	#20
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Thanks Dave, I've sent message to Karaeng Kesuma in facebook to join this discussion, if he won't mind. He stays in Lampung, and has a couple of Sumatran keris photo collection in his facebook... Btw, this Palembang hilt. Could I compose it with this silver pendokok? GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

23rd May 2010, 08:50 AM	#23
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Yes Kai, It took a lot of patience, to repeat the same process -- hot, cold, hot, cold. More than any javanese keris. Yes, the "candle method" that Alan suggested, helped much the process. The fixing material, seems to be traditional -- blackish, and rusty laquer. I don't know precisely what it is. Maybe like traditional javanese 'lacquer' (I don't know to describe it too), but more rusty... (picture below) The "hard" ivory -- not elephant tusk -- also make the hilt difficult to remove, because of the narrow hole, and the rusty lacquer material. The pesi is shorter than javanese pesi, but still in good condition. I've asked our Indonesian college to join this discussion group, but usually they participate passively, reading this discussion. They have some discussion group in Bahasa -- like FDK (Forum Diskusi Keris) in Yahoo with more than 200 members, and also you may see in Facebook too, there are some small groups of discussion. In Bahasa, of course... GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

23rd May 2010, 02:37 PM	#26
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Thanks Dave, pak Ganja and bro Alam for those inputs. I asked because two things: 1) Normally lampung hilts have long, curved beaks. 2) The hilt picture I posted have similar motives to pak Ganja's ivory hilt motives. I didn't doubt it will be from Lampung, but was the curves on the posted hilt's body is normal for it's kind? I really know very little about lampung hilts, so any inputs from all of you are really helpful...

23rd May 2010, 03:15 PM	#28
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,788	And there is a hilt type with similar features but also with style elements from Cirebon. So I am never sure from where this hilt coming. Attached Images

23rd May 2010, 04:27 PM	#29
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Hi Detlef, Thanks for those beautiful hilts pics! i think it bears similarities to your hilt no 1 (the first pix), especially the carving motives. Is that first pix hilt was a true blue lampung hilt? Could u post the picture of the first one, this time from the back of the hilt? Sorry for the inconveniences...