Sabre ?

Rick · 26th May 2012, 12:53 AM

This is a big one .
Scabbard is metal, no real Maker's marks, no wood liner; just a funny looking number ? on each side of the blade at the forte; one looks kind of like a 2 and the other like a 6 .
Wood carved handle with leather and wire .

Any ideas at all ??

Jim McDougall · 26th May 2012, 02:58 AM

Virginia Manufactory sabre type 2 (1803-20)
These were often shortened for Confederate use in Civil War.

Rick · 26th May 2012, 03:45 AM

Holy Cannolli !!
Mi Amigo paid $35.00 for it !

Can't wait to tell him .

These are rare, Jim ?

Just looked it up in Albaugh .
Great eye, Jim !!

Way to go .

M ELEY · 26th May 2012, 05:07 AM

$35.oo!!! Must be nice! Beaut of a sword. The slotted side guard reminds me of the American naval cutlass of the same period with slotting to side guard.

Ahhh, yes. Jim does have a very good eye!

Mark

Jim McDougall · 26th May 2012, 05:44 AM

Thanks very much guys

I knew this one right off because back in my collecting days I really wanted one, always thought they were pretty nice and loved the parabolic blade.
There was a great book, "The Virginia Manufactory of Arms" by Giles Cromwell as I recall, its been quite a few years.
These are pretty scarce, woth pretty good $$ though I think some repros out there....Stuart Mobray, the editor of "Man at Arms" magazine is the guy to talk to.....he likes these and Starr sabres.
Jim

Rick · 26th May 2012, 06:25 AM

Well, I was wondering about repro, actually .

The edge is rebated but this could have been done for display; no ? .

One hell of a distressing job if it is a repro; layers of rust .

The blade has great flex ....

[edit] If this sword is the real thing it was made between 1806 and 1808 .

Jim, this sword is huge; you need a quarter acre just to swing it . LOLZ !

Atlantia · 26th May 2012, 05:59 PM

Fab sword, love the shape. What a curve!!

Jim McDougall · 27th May 2012, 03:05 AM

Agree this thing is impressive, and when these were made swords were still very much primary weapons.....when these were called out again during the Civil War it seems they were shortened down. In my opinion this sword looks right, the rust on the hilt seems more recent, and the blade pretty clean, but the leather worn through on grip looks official. Incredible to find these kinda deals these days.......like the old urban tale of a lady who had a 'Chevy' in a barn for 50 years or some such...turned out to be a '54 Corvette with nearly no miles on it!

Rick · 27th May 2012, 04:21 AM

Well, the proud Owner is my favorite restrauteur .

I expect to be drinking free for a bit .

Jim, I will hoist one to you .

He was thrilled to hear the news; the piece would do well in the Summer Americana auction here at Eldred's, but he intends to keep it above the bar .

I advised him to do not much of anything to the sword except perhaps wax the blade .
First, do no harm ...

Just goes to show ... sometimes the pig in a poke works out .

" To err is human,
To arr is pirate."

Multumesc · 27th May 2012, 10:28 AM

Beautiful sword.

Norman McCormick · 27th May 2012, 01:10 PM

Here's another lucky "Bustard".

Jim McDougall · 27th May 2012, 09:23 PM

Good one Norman

!!
Arr Rick!!! Getting closer to the pirate coast,
Mark, does grog come in a sixpack?

M ELEY · 27th May 2012, 11:18 PM

That it does, Jim, that it does!!!

Lucky bustard!!! Too funny!

$35...I still can't get over that one!

Rick, I'm not one for much cleaning/polishing, but the hilt looks like it does have a little active rust. Perhaps a mild polish with 600 grit sandpaper/motor oil or olive oil just to prevent any future break-down?

fernando · 27th May 2012, 11:43 PM

Just two things Rick ...
1 - This you can call a bargain, not other things ... if you know what i mean

.
2 - You should tell the owner this sabre is crap, do him the favour to buy it for the 35 bucks he has spend and bring it to your collection ... or mine

All said

.

fernando · 27th May 2012, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Here's another lucky "Bustard".

Very nice joke ... from an imaginative Scot

.
Pity you can't make this trick in my language.
But let me teach you: the term is "Abetarda"

.
Learn until you die

Rick · 28th May 2012, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

That it does, Jim, that it does!!!

Lucky bustard!!! Too funny!

$35...I still can't get over that one!

Rick, I'm not one for much cleaning/polishing, but the hilt looks like it does have a little active rust. Perhaps a mild polish with 600 grit sandpaper/motor oil or olive oil just to prevent any future break-down?

You know, I would suggest that but I'm afraid he'll mess it up; which is why I didn't .

Maybe I will offer to do this; just to handle it again .

The scabbard seemed to have been japanned black from what remains of the finish . It is badly rusted .

" To err is human,
To arr is pirate."

Emanuel · 28th May 2012, 07:16 AM

VM Type 2 is it?

Well then, another entry on the "must-get" list

Lovely curve, brings to mind the more extreme gurade.

Rick · 28th May 2012, 07:15 PM

More than you ever wanted to know .

http://springfieldarsenal.files.word...esentation.pdf

Dmitry · 29th May 2012, 04:12 AM

Nice!
It's a $3000 sword.

M ELEY · 29th May 2012, 05:28 PM

$35...$3000...not too much of a difference-

Jim McDougall · 29th May 2012, 05:54 PM

Thank you Rick for posting the Cromwell work on this !!! I had no idea it was online and was wishing I had my copy here in the bookmobile.

While I very much agree with the potential retail price range on the sword I deferred placing specific value here as we prefer not to discuss these in this venue. I would caution readers that the opinions on value expressed do not constitute an appraisal or valuation for use in any type transaction or legal matter.

I cannot resist saying again what a magnificent sabre this is, and would really like to see more discussion and hopefully more examples entered here!!!

Rick · 30th May 2012, 07:07 PM

Hi Jim, I'm glad you found that link useful .

I'm starting to think that unaltered examples of this particular sword must be pretty darn scarce .

Dmitry · 31st May 2012, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I'm starting to think that unaltered examples of this particular sword must be pretty darn scarce .

Indeed.
Most of the extant examples were Confederate-altered, some rescabarded. My estimate of $3000 is the low end. I wouldn't be surprised at an auction price of $5000 for this sword. It does, however, require a very careful conservation of the metal surfaces and the leather on the grip. It's something that I love to do. Conserving a sword in this state is sort of a zen experience.

Rick · 31st May 2012, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Indeed.
Most of the extant examples were Confederate-altered, some rescabarded. My estimate of $3000 is the low end. I wouldn't be surprised at an auction price of $5000 for this sword. It does, however, require a very careful conservation of the metal surfaces and the leather on the grip. It's something that I love to do. Conserving a sword in this state is sort of a zen experience.

This is exactly why I told the owner not to mess with it .
I would hesitate to mess with it myself .

Dmitry, I think the scabbard needs to visit a good autobody shop .

The area around the drag is pretty dicey .

fernando · 31st May 2012, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Well, the proud Owner is my favorite restaurateur .

I expect to be drinking free for a bit .

...

For a bit ? After hearing all this, even if he has a close fist, he will easy offer you a season pass

.

Rick · 31st May 2012, 08:16 PM

Dmitry · 3rd June 2012, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

This is exactly why I told the owner not to mess with it .
I would hesitate to mess with it myself .

Dmitry, I think the scabbard needs to visit a good autobody shop .

The area around the drag is pretty dicey .

I think it needs to be "messed with". It appears to have been in a humid environment. At least a good smothering of BreakFree CLP all over [but not on the grip!!!]. I would leave the bottom portion of the scabbard alone. It shows natural wear from being banged and stepped on, and is now paper-thin. Iron this thin is very difficult to improve upon.
Just my $.02

Andrew · 5th June 2012, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

The edge is rebated but this could have been done for display; no ? .

What is this about? Is it possible the edge was intentionally rebated at the time of manufacture?

Rick · 5th June 2012, 01:57 AM

Good suggestion, Dmitry; I will pass it on to the owner .
Andrew, I have no idea why the blade is so dull .

Could it be 200+ years of being drawn and re-inserted in its scabbard ?

Guys, were these sabre scabbards saddle mounted ?
It is way too long to wear at the waist .

Rick · 7th June 2017, 10:14 PM

I'm very glad to announce that this has finally come to live with me now.

I gave it a heavy coat of Break Free LP, and that's all; not even going to try to remove any 'patina' (rust) .

26th May 2012, 12:53 AM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Sabre ? This is a big one . Scabbard is metal, no real Maker's marks, no wood liner; just a funny looking number ? on each side of the blade at the forte; one looks kind of like a 2 and the other like a 6 . Wood carved handle with leather and wire . Any ideas at all ?? Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 26th May 2012 at 01:08 AM.

26th May 2012, 03:45 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Holy Cannolli !! Mi Amigo paid $35.00 for it ! Can't wait to tell him . These are rare, Jim ? Just looked it up in Albaugh . Great eye, Jim !! Way to go . Last edited by Rick; 26th May 2012 at 04:28 AM.

26th May 2012, 06:25 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Well, I was wondering about repro, actually . The edge is rebated but this could have been done for display; no ? . One hell of a distressing job if it is a repro; layers of rust . The blade has great flex .... [edit] If this sword is the real thing it was made between 1806 and 1808 . Jim, this sword is huge; you need a quarter acre just to swing it . LOLZ ! Last edited by Rick; 26th May 2012 at 07:21 AM.

27th May 2012, 04:21 AM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Well, the proud Owner is my favorite restrauteur . I expect to be drinking free for a bit . Jim, I will hoist one to you . He was thrilled to hear the news; the piece would do well in the Summer Americana auction here at Eldred's, but he intends to keep it above the bar . I advised him to do not much of anything to the sword except perhaps wax the blade . First, do no harm ... Just goes to show ... sometimes the pig in a poke works out . " To err is human, To arr is pirate." Last edited by Rick; 27th May 2012 at 05:01 AM.

27th May 2012, 01:10 PM	#11
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Here's another lucky "Bustard". Attached Images

26th May 2012, 02:58 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Virginia Manufactory sabre type 2 (1803-20) These were often shortened for Confederate use in Civil War.

26th May 2012, 05:07 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	$35.oo!!! Must be nice! Beaut of a sword. The slotted side guard reminds me of the American naval cutlass of the same period with slotting to side guard. Ahhh, yes. Jim does have a very good eye! Mark

26th May 2012, 05:44 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Thanks very much guys I knew this one right off because back in my collecting days I really wanted one, always thought they were pretty nice and loved the parabolic blade. There was a great book, "The Virginia Manufactory of Arms" by Giles Cromwell as I recall, its been quite a few years. These are pretty scarce, woth pretty good $$ though I think some repros out there....Stuart Mobray, the editor of "Man at Arms" magazine is the guy to talk to.....he likes these and Starr sabres. Jim

26th May 2012, 05:59 PM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Fab sword, love the shape. What a curve!!

27th May 2012, 03:05 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Agree this thing is impressive, and when these were made swords were still very much primary weapons.....when these were called out again during the Civil War it seems they were shortened down. In my opinion this sword looks right, the rust on the hilt seems more recent, and the blade pretty clean, but the leather worn through on grip looks official. Incredible to find these kinda deals these days.......like the old urban tale of a lady who had a 'Chevy' in a barn for 50 years or some such...turned out to be a '54 Corvette with nearly no miles on it!

27th May 2012, 10:28 AM	#10
Multumesc Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Romania Posts: 203	Beautiful sword.

27th May 2012, 09:23 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Good one Norman!! Arr Rick!!! Getting closer to the pirate coast, Mark, does grog come in a sixpack?

27th May 2012, 11:18 PM	#13
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	That it does, Jim, that it does!!! Lucky bustard!!! Too funny! $35...I still can't get over that one! Rick, I'm not one for much cleaning/polishing, but the hilt looks like it does have a little active rust. Perhaps a mild polish with 600 grit sandpaper/motor oil or olive oil just to prevent any future break-down?

27th May 2012, 11:43 PM	#14
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Just two things Rick ... 1 - This you can call a bargain, not other things ... if you know what i mean . 2 - You should tell the owner this sabre is crap, do him the favour to buy it for the 35 bucks he has spend and bring it to your collection ... or mine All said .

28th May 2012, 07:16 AM	#17
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	VM Type 2 is it? Well then, another entry on the "must-get" list Lovely curve, brings to mind the more extreme gurade.

28th May 2012, 07:15 PM	#18
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	More than you ever wanted to know . http://springfieldarsenal.files.word...esentation.pdf

29th May 2012, 04:12 AM	#19
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Nice! It's a $3000 sword.

29th May 2012, 05:28 PM	#20
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	$35...$3000...not too much of a difference-

29th May 2012, 05:54 PM	#21
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Thank you Rick for posting the Cromwell work on this !!! I had no idea it was online and was wishing I had my copy here in the bookmobile. While I very much agree with the potential retail price range on the sword I deferred placing specific value here as we prefer not to discuss these in this venue. I would caution readers that the opinions on value expressed do not constitute an appraisal or valuation for use in any type transaction or legal matter. I cannot resist saying again what a magnificent sabre this is, and would really like to see more discussion and hopefully more examples entered here!!!

30th May 2012, 07:07 PM	#22
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hi Jim, I'm glad you found that link useful . I'm starting to think that unaltered examples of this particular sword must be pretty darn scarce .

31st May 2012, 08:16 PM	#26
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293

5th June 2012, 01:57 AM	#29
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Good suggestion, Dmitry; I will pass it on to the owner . Andrew, I have no idea why the blade is so dull . Could it be 200+ years of being drawn and re-inserted in its scabbard ? Guys, were these sabre scabbards saddle mounted ? It is way too long to wear at the waist .

7th June 2017, 10:14 PM	#30
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Update I'm very glad to announce that this has finally come to live with me now. I gave it a heavy coat of Break Free LP, and that's all; not even going to try to remove any 'patina' (rust) .