Large Junggayan Kris

Battara · 1st August 2012, 08:21 PM

Greetings folks!

I got this back in March at the Louisville Military Show of Shows.

Here are pictures of how it was when I got it. It was missing some of the back tail decor, the nose, and a silver band.

ThePepperSkull · 1st August 2012, 08:23 PM

She's a beauty! Somehow I feel restoration pics are soon to follow.

I always enjoy seeing you work your magic, Jose.

Battara · 1st August 2012, 08:31 PM

Here are pictures of the fully restored piece. I did the replacement silver band, the scabbard, and took the rust off and etched the blade.

What was amazing is that Maggie, who restores ivory, did the missing ivory parts, and refitted the tail which was poorly glued. She did amazing work!

Enjoy!

ThePepperSkull · 1st August 2012, 08:39 PM

Speechless. That large fissure in the back of the kakatua has completely dissapeared. and the "beak" looks to be incorporated just as seamlessly.

Compliments to you and Maggie.

mross · 1st August 2012, 08:52 PM

Beautiful work. What wood did you use for the scabbard?

David · 1st August 2012, 09:14 PM

That ivory restoration is just fantastic!

A.alnakkas · 1st August 2012, 09:18 PM

Beautiful piece, thanks alot for sharing mate!

kino · 1st August 2012, 09:48 PM

Good work on the restoration.
What is the dimension of the Kakatua, looks big.
Great find.

Spunjer · 1st August 2012, 10:18 PM

Wowowee! She's come a long way since the last time i saw her!!! Great resto job on the pommel!

Battara · 1st August 2012, 11:25 PM

Thank you folks.

As far as the scabbard is concerned, it is made of stained walnut.

The kakatua pommel is 3 7/8 inches wide and 8 inches long from nose to tail.

kino · 2nd August 2012, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

The kakatua pommel is 3 7/8 inches wide and 8 inches long from nose to tail.

That thing is huge!!
When it comes to Ivory Kakatua's....size does matter.

Battara · 2nd August 2012, 03:39 AM

Yeah Kino you're not kidding. That is why I took the risk of getting this in bad condition - I saw a diamond in the rough.

Also it has a plate of silver on the back of the ganga.

MrLyon101 · 2nd August 2012, 04:33 AM

I really like the ivory work. and of all things the sheath is beautiful as well. great wood work!

Sajen · 3rd August 2012, 08:23 PM

Hello Jose,

wow, what a beauty! And a perfect restauration! I hope that I will own such a nice kris one day.

Am I correct that it is a Maranao blade?

Regards,

Detlef

Battara · 3rd August 2012, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Am I correct that it is a Maranao blade?

You are close. Actually I think it is the tribe next door: Maguindanao.

Besides they too had junggayan pommels as well as the Sulu.

Jazz · 4th August 2012, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

You are close. Actually I think it is the tribe next door: Maguindanao.

Besides they too had junggayan pommels as well as the Sulu.

Hullo Battara,
What makes you think it's a Maguindanao blade? According to Cato's definition, your blade is the classic Maranao type: jaw jutting underneath the "beak". I thought the Maguindanao has a more open beak perpendicular to the top part of the gangya. Or are you basing it on something else?

Battara · 4th August 2012, 03:36 AM

A good question. The documented Maranao blades I have seen do have some "jutting" out of the bottom of the ganga, but the "elephant" section of the ganga does not have an "eye" and are a little larger, whereas the documented Maguindanao ones I have seen have an "eye" and do not stand as tall as the Maranao and the top of the "trunk" has deeper cuts than those of the Maranao.

Small subtleties not mentioned in Cato but there nevertheless.

Difficult to tell the difference since they are next door neighbors and very similar in style. Also according to Cato the Maranao did not use the junggayan style of pommel for their kris but instead did more chasing of okir motifs on their metal bands on their hilts.

Nathaniel · 4th August 2012, 04:05 AM

Wow, it turned out fantastic Jose! You and Maggie did a amazing job! Thanks for sharing! Always interesting to see what is possible!!!

VANDOO · 4th August 2012, 04:52 AM

I WAS ALONG WHEN THIS WAS AQUIRED AND AM HAPPY TO SEE SUCH A FINE RESTORATION. NOW SHE IS ALL DECKED OUT AND IN A GOOD HOME.

Jazz · 4th August 2012, 01:40 PM

I have to say that that is a beautiful kris, Battara! Maybe one day I will own one likr that.
What about the possibility that those documented blades you have seen were traded blades?

I'm re-reading Cato's book, and hereare his descriptions:

Maranao:

"The type that is distinctly Maranao begins with an elongated trunk. The mouth cavity, while still present, is quite narrow, and the lower jaw runs parallel to the guard. While the Sulu, Maguindanao and crossover forms of elephant's head/trunk motif display concave cavities beneath the lower jaw, the Maranao configuration does not. Instead a substantial protrusion juts out from beneath it."

here's the Maguindanao description:

"The type that is uniquely Maguindanao is similar to the Sulu version, to the point of being easily mistaken for it"

and this:

"The Maguindanao style, like the Sulu, exhibits an elliptical elephant's mouth that is still somewhat pointed on the innermost end."

Also, nowhere in the book does it says the Maranaos did not use these type of hilts, but rather, "Flamboyant junggayan-type were not popular with the Maranaos... the pommels of their ceremonial krises were generally confined to the standard kakatua profile." I would take this statement that there's a possibility the Maranaos did use these type of pommel on their Ceremonial krises.

Not trying to be in disagreement, Battara, just confused on how these krises are classified. On some threads, whenever it doesn't fit Cato's classification, it's classified as "traded".

Sajen · 4th August 2012, 02:22 PM

Hello Jose,

have the same thoughts as Jazz!

Regards,

Detlef

CCUAL · 4th August 2012, 05:04 PM

Check Cato's book. If not mistaken 1st or 2nd page ivory junggayan kris and barong. A good example of seems to be of Maranao blade from Dave and Lonna's collections.

Battara · 4th August 2012, 07:30 PM

There is always the possibility of a trade blade since trade was common.

I will recheck and consider the points you make.

Battara · 5th August 2012, 05:08 AM

I have re-examined the "elephant" section of the ganga on this sword and it has a slight elliptical form to it even though the lines beneath it are straight. According to Cato this makes it more of a Maguindanao rather than a Maranao blade.

However there is a style that is not mentioned in Cato that I have noticed in documented pieces and pieces that in scabbard form (according to Cato) are Maguindanao. This form is what I call the "eagle" form and is distinct from the "elephant" form (note: there are a number of details and things that not mentioned in Cato, for example, gunongs).

Here are some pictures of 2 Maguindanao pieces - notice the the "eagle" form of which I speak. I also had another one like the silver hilted one with a nearly identical back and front of the ganga that was brought back from a GI when he was in Maguindanao country in WWII (I will admit that my piece on top does look a little more Maranao than the other one).

Spunjer · 5th August 2012, 06:11 AM

never was a big fan of categorizing these blades; it makes everything static. there's just too many variations to make a conclusion that a particular elephant's head and trunk design is a surefire indicator of what tribe the kris came from. what everyone seems to forget is that these were mere hypothesis put forth by cato, nothing concrete. but for the sake of this thread:
here's a close up of that silver pommeled kris, and based on cato's classification this is suppose to be Maguindanao. i believe this is what he meant by elliptical...

Spunjer · 5th August 2012, 06:17 AM

now let's compare that with a junggayan pommeled kris with the same elephant's head and trunk design

Quote:

("The Maguindanao style, like the Sulu, exhibits an elliptical elephant's mouth that is still somewhat pointed on the innermost end.")

per Jazz's post:

Spunjer · 5th August 2012, 06:24 AM

Jose, you mentioned:

Quote:

The documented Maranao blades I have seen do have some "jutting" out of the bottom of the ganga, but the "elephant" section of the ganga does not have an "eye" and are a little larger, whereas the documented Maguindanao ones I have seen have an "eye" and do not stand as tall as the Maranao and the top of the "trunk" has deeper cuts than those of the Maranao.

so here's a junggayan that has the jutting jaw,and to top it all, it doesn't have an eye. now if we go by cato's classification once again this particular kris is a classic Maranao, and the one above is Maguindanao. incidentally the so called Maranao is much larger than the Maguindanao.

ThePepperSkull · 5th August 2012, 06:43 AM

Admit it Ron, you just wanted to show your beautiful kris off

Rick · 5th August 2012, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

Admit it Ron, you just wanted to show your beautiful kris off

Yeah, Ron ..

Anyway, I was wondering about the cohesiveness of the Mindanao and the Sulu Moro groups over the centuries .

I'm somewhat aware of the Iranun role as slavers for Sulu, still; would most blades be exchanged through trade or capture ?

Is this something we can only guess at ?

Spunjer · 5th August 2012, 01:29 PM

hah! wait til i post this archaic kris i was working on last night and found out it has a round tang, pepperskull...

IMHO, Rick, i wouldn't say most, but i'm sure there were trades. i'm with you that at this point the most we can do is guess. as far as cato's classification, they're mere guidelines at best.
gotta go to work. will elaborate later...

1st August 2012, 08:21 PM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Large Junggayan Kris Greetings folks! I got this back in March at the Louisville Military Show of Shows. Here are pictures of how it was when I got it. It was missing some of the back tail decor, the nose, and a silver band. Attached Images

1st August 2012, 08:31 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Here are pictures of the fully restored piece. I did the replacement silver band, the scabbard, and took the rust off and etched the blade. What was amazing is that Maggie, who restores ivory, did the missing ivory parts, and refitted the tail which was poorly glued. She did amazing work! Enjoy! Attached Images

4th August 2012, 05:04 PM	#22
CCUAL Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 76	Maranao blade w/ huge Junggayan Ivory Check Cato's book. If not mistaken 1st or 2nd page ivory junggayan kris and barong. A good example of seems to be of Maranao blade from Dave and Lonna's collections.

5th August 2012, 05:08 AM	#24
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	I have re-examined the "elephant" section of the ganga on this sword and it has a slight elliptical form to it even though the lines beneath it are straight. According to Cato this makes it more of a Maguindanao rather than a Maranao blade. However there is a style that is not mentioned in Cato that I have noticed in documented pieces and pieces that in scabbard form (according to Cato) are Maguindanao. This form is what I call the "eagle" form and is distinct from the "elephant" form (note: there are a number of details and things that not mentioned in Cato, for example, gunongs). Here are some pictures of 2 Maguindanao pieces - notice the the "eagle" form of which I speak. I also had another one like the silver hilted one with a nearly identical back and front of the ganga that was brought back from a GI when he was in Maguindanao country in WWII (I will admit that my piece on top does look a little more Maranao than the other one). Attached Images

5th August 2012, 06:11 AM	#25
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	never was a big fan of categorizing these blades; it makes everything static. there's just too many variations to make a conclusion that a particular elephant's head and trunk design is a surefire indicator of what tribe the kris came from. what everyone seems to forget is that these were mere hypothesis put forth by cato, nothing concrete. but for the sake of this thread: here's a close up of that silver pommeled kris, and based on cato's classification this is suppose to be Maguindanao. i believe this is what he meant by elliptical... Attached Images

1st August 2012, 08:23 PM	#2
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	She's a beauty! Somehow I feel restoration pics are soon to follow. I always enjoy seeing you work your magic, Jose.

1st August 2012, 08:39 PM	#4
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	Speechless. That large fissure in the back of the kakatua has completely dissapeared. and the "beak" looks to be incorporated just as seamlessly. Compliments to you and Maggie.

1st August 2012, 08:52 PM	#5
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Beautiful work. What wood did you use for the scabbard?

1st August 2012, 09:14 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	That ivory restoration is just fantastic!

1st August 2012, 09:18 PM	#7
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Beautiful piece, thanks alot for sharing mate!

1st August 2012, 09:48 PM	#8
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,007	Good work on the restoration. What is the dimension of the Kakatua, looks big. Great find.

1st August 2012, 10:18 PM	#9
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Wowowee! She's come a long way since the last time i saw her!!! Great resto job on the pommel!

1st August 2012, 11:25 PM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Thank you folks. As far as the scabbard is concerned, it is made of stained walnut. The kakatua pommel is 3 7/8 inches wide and 8 inches long from nose to tail.

2nd August 2012, 03:39 AM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Yeah Kino you're not kidding. That is why I took the risk of getting this in bad condition - I saw a diamond in the rough. Also it has a plate of silver on the back of the ganga.

2nd August 2012, 04:33 AM	#13
MrLyon101 Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 17	I really like the ivory work. and of all things the sheath is beautiful as well. great wood work!

3rd August 2012, 08:23 PM	#14
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,791	Hello Jose, wow, what a beauty! And a perfect restauration! I hope that I will own such a nice kris one day. Am I correct that it is a Maranao blade? Regards, Detlef

4th August 2012, 03:36 AM	#17
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	A good question. The documented Maranao blades I have seen do have some "jutting" out of the bottom of the ganga, but the "elephant" section of the ganga does not have an "eye" and are a little larger, whereas the documented Maguindanao ones I have seen have an "eye" and do not stand as tall as the Maranao and the top of the "trunk" has deeper cuts than those of the Maranao. Small subtleties not mentioned in Cato but there nevertheless. Difficult to tell the difference since they are next door neighbors and very similar in style. Also according to Cato the Maranao did not use the junggayan style of pommel for their kris but instead did more chasing of okir motifs on their metal bands on their hilts.

4th August 2012, 04:05 AM	#18
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Wow, it turned out fantastic Jose! You and Maggie did a amazing job! Thanks for sharing! Always interesting to see what is possible!!!

4th August 2012, 04:52 AM	#19
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I WAS ALONG WHEN THIS WAS AQUIRED AND AM HAPPY TO SEE SUCH A FINE RESTORATION. NOW SHE IS ALL DECKED OUT AND IN A GOOD HOME.

4th August 2012, 01:40 PM	#20
Jazz Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 44	I have to say that that is a beautiful kris, Battara! Maybe one day I will own one likr that. What about the possibility that those documented blades you have seen were traded blades? I'm re-reading Cato's book, and hereare his descriptions: Maranao: "The type that is distinctly Maranao begins with an elongated trunk. The mouth cavity, while still present, is quite narrow, and the lower jaw runs parallel to the guard. While the Sulu, Maguindanao and crossover forms of elephant's head/trunk motif display concave cavities beneath the lower jaw, the Maranao configuration does not. Instead a substantial protrusion juts out from beneath it." here's the Maguindanao description: "The type that is uniquely Maguindanao is similar to the Sulu version, to the point of being easily mistaken for it" and this: "The Maguindanao style, like the Sulu, exhibits an elliptical elephant's mouth that is still somewhat pointed on the innermost end." Also, nowhere in the book does it says the Maranaos did not use these type of hilts, but rather, "Flamboyant junggayan-type were not popular with the Maranaos... the pommels of their ceremonial krises were generally confined to the standard kakatua profile." I would take this statement that there's a possibility the Maranaos did use these type of pommel on their Ceremonial krises. Not trying to be in disagreement, Battara, just confused on how these krises are classified. On some threads, whenever it doesn't fit Cato's classification, it's classified as "traded".

4th August 2012, 02:22 PM	#21
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,791	Hello Jose, have the same thoughts as Jazz! Regards, Detlef

4th August 2012, 07:30 PM	#23
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	There is always the possibility of a trade blade since trade was common. I will recheck and consider the points you make.

5th August 2012, 06:43 AM	#28
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	Admit it Ron, you just wanted to show your beautiful kris off

5th August 2012, 01:29 PM	#30
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	hah! wait til i post this archaic kris i was working on last night and found out it has a round tang, pepperskull... IMHO, Rick, i wouldn't say most, but i'm sure there were trades. i'm with you that at this point the most we can do is guess. as far as cato's classification, they're mere guidelines at best. gotta go to work. will elaborate later...