Torador Matchlock - Finished

rickystl · 21st December 2016, 06:58 PM

Hello All.

I guess this is actually Part IV of the Torador Barrel Investigation Threads I posted earlier. But thought I would start a new Thread since the gun is now complete.
The Torador musket is now re-assembled and complete. It's now safe, and ready to be test fired.

Can't wait to try it out.

The OAL length is 75" (191cm) with a barrel length of 55.5" (141cm). The original caliber was about .65 (17mm). It has a new steel liner in the bore and a sleeve inside the breech area. It is now a .54 (14mm) caliber smoothbore.
It has a new brass front bead sight. The clean break in the forearm wood was repaired, which doesn't even show. The original pan cover was missing. So a new one was made. I added a vent pick and chain. The bead work is just me playing around. LOL

Original powder and priming flasks in working order. I will use these to load. Should be much fun.
Anyway, picture heavy here. Comments most appreciated. And thanks for looking.

Rick

rickystl · 21st December 2016, 07:00 PM

MORE PICS..........

rickystl · 21st December 2016, 07:02 PM

STILL MORE PICS......

rickystl · 21st December 2016, 07:03 PM

LAST ONES............

kahnjar1 · 21st December 2016, 07:41 PM

VERY NICE!!! I really like the pic with all the accoutrements! We tend to forget what is also carried with guns............
Stu

Norman McCormick · 21st December 2016, 08:08 PM

Hi Rick,
Great work as always and I'm with Stu on the bits, nicely done. There's quite a lot of Toradors in the U.K., bring backs during the Raj, most of which are in a sorry state stuffed in garages and attics but the bits are much more difficult to find so it's nice to see them together. I've not been about much lately, have you got a liner in the barrel and if you have what is it like to shoot?
Regards,
Norman.

rickystl · 23rd December 2016, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

VERY NICE!!! I really like the pic with all the accoutrements! We tend to forget what is also carried with guns............
Stu

Hi Stu.

Thanks for the comment. I plan on using the flasks to load while test firing and set the other accoutrements on the shooting bench next to me just to add to the "atmosphere" if you get what I mean. LOL. Should be great fun.

Rick

rickystl · 23rd December 2016, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Rick,
Great work as always and I'm with Stu on the bits, nicely done. There's quite a lot of Toradors in the U.K., bring backs during the Raj, most of which are in a sorry state stuffed in garages and attics but the bits are much more difficult to find so it's nice to see them together. I've not been about much lately, have you got a liner in the barrel and if you have what is it like to shoot?
Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman.

Thanks for your comments. The barrel does in fact have a new steel liner. It's now a .54 caliber (14mm) smoothbore. I can load, shoot, and clean just like any other muzzle loader. It was just finished, so I have not fired it yet. Will probably wait till early Spring so I can have someone shoot a video.

Next Project, I'm sending off the barrel of an Albanian Tanchika long gun to have a liner installed. LOL

Rick

Pukka Bundook · 29th December 2016, 02:48 PM

Look forward to a range report Rick!
Like I said elsewhere, I believe this gun came from Jaipur originally, going by the metal re-enforcing and decorative style.

Looks well now. Maybe polish the scratches out on the muzzle end a bit.. :-)

R.

rickystl · 30th December 2016, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Look forward to a range report Rick!
Like I said elsewhere, I believe this gun came from Jaipur originally, going by the metal re-enforcing and decorative style.

Looks well now. Maybe polish the scratches out on the muzzle end a bit.. :-)

R.

Hi Richard.

Thanks again for the comments. I agree with your origins assessment. Now that you mention it, yes. The muzzle end could do with a bit of oil and crocus cloth. LOL.

Rick

Philip · 3rd January 2017, 08:41 AM

It looks great! Can't wait to see the video of you shooting it. And seeing how the shots group at 50 yd. The barrel liner is good not only for reinforcing and safety, but it gives you a standard caliber that's easy to get the proper sized bullet mold for. Do you find that the stock allows you to get a good sight picture in a comfortable and stable shooting stance?

Kubur · 3rd January 2017, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

It looks great! Can't wait to see the video of you shooting it. And seeing how the shots group at 50 yd. The barrel liner is good not only for reinforcing and safety, but it gives you a standard caliber that's easy to get the proper sized bullet mold for. Do you find that the stock allows you to get a good sight picture in a comfortable and stable shooting stance?

YES
I can't wait to see some videos if possible to hear the noise and to see the results on different kind of (non human) targets.

Happy new year and best wishes to all
Kubur

Roland_M · 3rd January 2017, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

And seeing how the shots group at 50 yd.

The barrel seems to have a smooth bore so it is a musket.

I know a wonderful sarcastic statement of an American Civil War Veteran: "The safest place on a musket (smoothbore) is directly in front of it."

Roland

Pukka Bundook · 3rd January 2017, 03:46 PM

Ah Roland, Some say so but others know better! :-)
We shoot our EIC Type F's and find if we load and hold them right, we can keep our shots well in the black at 50 yards. (Offhand)

At our annual shoot here in Alberta, some of us tried them from a rest. In essence a high rest so we could shoot still standing.
With 125 grs of 2F and a .750" ball, we found we could keep our group in the 3 1/2 to 4" at 50 yards.
They Did kick more from a rest though!
A good friend in the UK has shot well with a musket for a long time, and has found that even with small charges of powder, (85 grs) he can shoot a score in the mid 90's and has won quite a few Golds in National and international events, three or four in the last year!
For his shooting this pal uses a patched ball, whereas we us Bill Curtis' method of a thick felt wad above and below the ball, well lubed.

Also, I've wanted to try a Torador for some time now, and have a barrel I'm working on, fine -boring it to smooth it up. What got me interested in these and trying them, are the contemporary accounts from the Indian sub-continent of matchlock Toradors out-ranging and being far more accurate than the British Service musket. ( Going by the above re. accuracy, I believe it wasn't so much the musket as the compromised loading for speed that made the musket less effective than it could have been)
So Rick!...as mine is not yet ready to fire,m we wait with baited breath for your reports!

Roland,
A good book with references to Toradors in use is "Sahib", by Richard Holmes, and of course Lord Eggerton has quotes from eye -witnesses regarding horsemen with matchlocks shooting small objects as they pass at a gallop at a range of 20-40 yards and "rarely miss".

All best,
Richard.

Roland_M · 4th January 2017, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Ah Roland, Some say so but others know better! :-)
We shoot our EIC Type F's and find if we load and hold them right, we can keep our shots well in the black at 50 yards. (Offhand)

At our annual shoot here in Alberta, some of us tried them from a rest. In essence a high rest so we could shoot still standing.
With 125 grs of 2F and a .750" ball, we found we could keep our group in the 3 1/2 to 4" at 50 yards.

All best,
Richard.

Hello Richard,

with a smoothbore barrel? I'm really impressed. I have some experiences in firing a black powder pistol but with a rifled barrel. The precision is almost the same as modern pistols. I always thought, that a smoothbore is very imprecise.

My knowledge come from military muskets and the bore of military muskets is always 2 or 3 mm bigger than the bullet because of the deposit from black powder in the barrel.

It seems, hunting muskets are much more precise.

I forgot to mention, that this is a nice and skillful restoration!

I'm also very interested to see the results and please Rick, clean the barrel after every single shot. I would not use more than 30 or 40 grain of black powder for the first shot.
The sound of a black powder gun is incredibly nice and only outclassed by a black powder canon.

Best wishes,
Roland

Pukka Bundook · 4th January 2017, 05:23 PM

Roland,
Yes, such results are possible with the smooth-bore. Note these loadings are with a closer fitting ball then was standard, where a paper cartridge was used, but useful shooting can still be done with the latter.
I too like the 'boom' of black!

Best wishes,
Richard.

rickystl · 7th January 2017, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

It looks great! Can't wait to see the video of you shooting it. And seeing how the shots group at 50 yd. The barrel liner is good not only for reinforcing and safety, but it gives you a standard caliber that's easy to get the proper sized bullet mold for. Do you find that the stock allows you to get a good sight picture in a comfortable and stable shooting stance?

Hi Philip.

What I found interesting is due to the design and length of the butt stock, you can actually get a sight picture with the butt against the shoulder or cupped under the armpit. With the liner there is a bit more weight added. I will probably start at the 25-yard bench to see where it shoots, and work my way up from there.

Rick

rickystl · 7th January 2017, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

The barrel seems to have a smooth bore so it is a musket.

I know a wonderful sarcastic statement of an American Civil War Veteran: "The safest place on a musket (smoothbore) is directly in front of it."

Roland

Hi Roland.

LOL!!!! That's a good one.

Yes, it's a smoothbore. I have never seen any Torador that was not.

With the barrel liner I've dramatically changed the bore configuration from it's original design. So I'm guessing it will shoot similar to other smoothbore muskets now. It would have been very interesting to know how the original bore design would shoot. But I was not willing to risk it. LOL

Rick

rickystl · 7th January 2017, 08:00 PM

Hi Roland.

Thanks for your comments. Yes, I think it turned out well. Actually, I'll start with about 60 grains of FFG for 25-yards, and work my way up from there. I'll try both patched ball and unpatched with over and under wads as Richard mentions and see what works best. That would be a typical starting load for a .54 smoothbore. The stell liner will handle much more than that.

Hi Richard. Yes, a video would almost be required shooting this one for the first time. LOL Glad to hear your barrel is coming along. Something you might find interesting: The barrelsmith mentioned that the original forge-welded breech plug was done in such a manner (at least on my barrel) that it was virtually one piece and would have safely with stood the normal pressure of the black powder. JFYI

Rick

Pukka Bundook · 10th January 2017, 04:14 PM

Thanks for the info via your gunsmith friend re, the "integral' breechplug, Rick. Good to know as mine is staying in place. :-)

I just got half a matchlock shipped up here, (!) Yes, it is coming in 2 separate packages. It's that one from Jaipur with the wee birds on the wrist and badly broken stock. I am in high hopes the barrel is good, when it arrives!
Look forward to seeing your 'footage' when you fire this one. :-)

R.

Pukka Bundook · 13th January 2017, 02:50 PM

Update;
My Jaipur sporting matchlock barrel has arrived Rick, and it is a Lovely barrel!
Bore is very good And! ....It has No chamber at the breech!!!!
Smooth and a true cylinder all the way down.
Bit of light rust inside and out, but compared to many torador barrels, it's a lovely one.

Had to share. :-)
4 other barrels arrived at same time and the Persian ones are fantastic. So slim and light! 2 more torador barrels as well, from up in Oudh I believe.. Bores a bit rougher & no time yet to chech for chambers but think they will surely have them.
More as and when. :-)

Richard.

rickystl · 13th January 2017, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Update;
My Jaipur sporting matchlock barrel has arrived Rick, and it is a Lovely barrel!
Bore is very good And! ....It has No chamber at the breech!!!!
Smooth and a true cylinder all the way down.
Bit of light rust inside and out, but compared to many torador barrels, it's a lovely one.

Had to share. :-)
4 other barrels arrived at same time and the Persian ones are fantastic. So slim and light! 2 more torador barrels as well, from up in Oudh I believe.. Bores a bit rougher & no time yet to chech for chambers but think they will surely have them.
More as and when. :-)

Richard.

Hi Richard

WOW !!! All those barrels delivered at once! Merry be-lated Christmas. LOL.
Can't believe it. The one Torador barrel turns out to be cylinder bore it's full length ? Super !!! Hard to believe. I think it's trying to tell you it wants to shoot again. LOL Sounds like it just needs a burnishing and it will be ready to go. Very cool.
Do you think the stock can be restored ? Once you get started on the project please start a new Thread and keep us posted of your progress. Should be fun.
Also, post the other barrels if you want. We see very few Persian made barrels.

Rick

Pukka Bundook · 14th January 2017, 03:21 AM

I will do as you request Rick, re. another thread when I get at the broken stock.
Yes, it can be mended, because I've decided it Has to be mended,...but as yet I have to figure out how best, exactly. :-)

Persian barrels had lived in Oman I believe, by the part stocks that came with them. Still, I believe they Are Persian. One is near identical to an example in Tipu Sultan's arsenal.....which maybe gives me legit reason to stock one up that way! lol...
Odd thing is, it says that his barrel in Indian, re-used!
"The Firearms of Tipu Sultan, Page 128 & 9.
I don't have a copy of the book, but a pal sent me a file showing it, but can't seem to copy it.

archer · 11th February 2018, 07:19 PM

Great project loving the whole thing. Richard is right as well, we need to try getting a safe competition started for comparison. Elgood mentions Akbar proofing his Toradors by filing the barrels to the top and that half full barrels had a tendency to burst.It must have a reference to chamber not the barrel? I have always read that with black powder you must have a bullet seated directly on top of it to avoid air space and excessive pressures. We need to see if by their mastery of blacksmithing these bottle necked chambers made them the magnum of their day. So can we use less modern black powder and a filler like cornmeal, grits, cream of wheat? It will be awhile but i'd love to do some testing. Steve

Philip · 11th February 2018, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archer

Great project loving the whole thing. Richard is right as well, we need to try getting a safe competition started for comparison. Elgood mentions Akbar proofing his Toradors by filing the barrels to the top and that half full barrels had a tendency to burst.It must have a reference to chamber not the barrel? I have always read that with black powder you must have a bullet seated directly on top of it to avoid air space and excessive pressures. Steve

Air space in a chamber or barrel can created dangerous pressures no matter what the breech configuration or powder requirements of a firearm are. I've had a lot of experience handloading cartridges using black and nitro powders for various vintage firearms, and the one thing the manuals emphasize is never to under-fill a cartridge case for this very reason. Light "squib" loads require a filler like kapok fiber (some shooters used wadded up toilet paper!) between the powder and the seated bullet. Also, firearms safety experts always warn never to shoot a gun whose barrel has an obstruction of any kind, whether a bit of mud, a forgotten cleaning patch, or whatever.

I agree regarding the Akbar text, it's hard to believe that "filling to the top" meant to the muzzle. As a matter of comparison, here is a description of proof firing as done in Spain in the 16th cent., this from a 1644 treatise by gun expert Alonzo Martínez de Espinar in his Arte de Ballestería y Montería :

"...to make sure of its solidity and resistance, it was tested by pouring in a quantity of powder equal to the weight of the ball that it took, with a tight-fitting tarred wad; on this the weight of four balls of large shot with another wad like the first; when the barrel was charged in this manner, they fired it off in a remote spot, and it it stood the same test three times, they put the marks on it and continued their work to its completion."

Considering the relative density of gunpowder and lead, the powder charges in these proof loads must have been considerable.

The rigorous testing was apparently continued in following centuries in that country, and enabled such qualitative improvements in barrel-forging technology that by the 18th cent. Spanish smiths, using the very ductile iron recycled from Vizcayan horseshoes, were able to produce shotgun barrels that of such lightness and strength that they were widely faked in Germany and elsewhere, and which equalled if not superseded the tubes made by the legendary Cominazzo family of Brescia in the previous century.

kahnjar1 · 11th February 2018, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archer

Great project loving the whole thing. Richard is right as well, we need to try getting a safe competition started for comparison. Elgood mentions Akbar proofing his Toradors by filing the barrels to the top and that half full barrels had a tendency to burst.It must have a reference to chamber not the barrel? I have always read that with black powder you must have a bullet seated directly on top of it to avoid air space and excessive pressures. We need to see if by their mastery of blacksmithing these bottle necked chambers made them the magnum of their day. So can we use less modern black powder and a filler like cornmeal, grits, cream of wheat? It will be awhile but i'd love to do some testing. Steve

Hi Steve,
You are correct regarding the need to have the ball sitting tight on top of the powder charge as any gap is likely to create a "piston" effect, thereby creating excess pressure build up. This of course should also be followed with any muzzle loader charge, not just barrels with tapered chambers.
I guess a suitable wadding between the powder charge and the ball would solve any gap problem, and YES, it is also very likely that modern black powder could well be far more powerful than that from years gone by, so testing with a light load is probably a good idea! We used 4F from memory when we shot old muzzle loaders in years gone by. I say "from memory" as it's probably 30+ years since I shot any black powder gun. Coarser powder the better as it burns a bit slower than the fine stuff.
A safe way to test is to lash the gun to an old tire and retire a safe distance with a string attached to the trigger. That way you will only destroy the gun if something goes wrong, and not yourself!

Safe shooting.
Stu

archer · 11th February 2018, 10:13 PM

Hi Stu,
I have used the tie it down method too, good job I Did.
That the film we have been using to demonstrate chambers uses dried
Dung Or dirt between powder and ball. Akbar was a renaissance man he is credited with coming up with spiraling barrels, thus making them much stronger and safer Steve

Pukka Bundook · 12th February 2018, 03:49 AM

A very nice thread gents,

I have just enjoyed the last few new comments.

Steve, In translation we may well have lost the true meaning of how Akbar had the barrels tested. A full Chamber sounds more sense than a full barrel!

This also begs the question, Why a chamber would be constructed so large that it was (apparently ) common to only half fill it.?

Loading these chambered barrels appears to have taken longer, and why they were continued in use after corned powder I do not know.
We do read that some Very high quality powder was produced over there, So I for one can't come up with a good reason for what we find today.

Stu,

The powder you used years back would be coarse, like 1F or 2F I would imagine. 4F is priming powder for matchlocks and such, and would more or less detonate in a barrel if used as the main charge.

Regarding air space, a small airspace in a cartridge is completely fine with black powder, Some International shooting friends load in this manner, but please do not give me grief about it, because I do not! :-)

Steve, again if I may,
Trying your cow dung yesterday worked very well. The toradar went off like a rocket. :-)
It packed nicely in the chamber so appears to be very cheap form of wadding! (Here on the farm, that is!....Dried, Not fresh stuff LOL!)

I would Really look forward to us having some kind of a competition for these old arms!

We Do have an annual shoot here on the farm, and I did use mine a little last year. We also shoot European style matchlocks, my latest creation being a short snapping matchlock based on one of Michael T's beloved guns.

If anyone would like to come up (or down) to Alberta in late June, please just drop me a line, you would be more than welcome! (Victorian theme really, but we sneak other things in!)

To try an old arm, I usually tie it to a saw horse and fire it remote with a long string.
At the time of trying the toradar barrel yesterday, I also tried a lovely little Persian barrel, it is very promising though may need the touchhole re-piercing, as it is Much too high and flashed repeatedly.

All the best,
Richard.

kahnjar1 · 12th February 2018, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

A very nice thread gents,

I have just enjoyed the last few new comments.

Steve, In translation we may well have lost the true meaning of how Akbar had the barrels tested. A full Chamber sounds more sense than a full barrel!

This also begs the question, Why a chamber would be constructed so large that it was (apparently ) common to only half fill it.?

Loading these chambered barrels appears to have taken longer, and why they were continued in use after corned powder I do not know.
We do read that some Very high quality powder was produced over there, So I for one can't come up with a good reason for what we find today.

Stu,

The powder you used years back would be coarse, like 1F or 2F I would imagine. 4F is priming powder for matchlocks and such, and would more or less detonate in a barrel if used as the main charge.

Regarding air space, a small airspace in a cartridge is completely fine with black powder, Some International shooting friends load in this manner, but please do not give me grief about it, because I do not! :-)

Steve, again if I may,
Trying your cow dung yesterday worked very well. The toradar went off like a rocket. :-)
It packed nicely in the chamber so appears to be very cheap form of wadding! (Here on the farm, that is!....Dried, Not fresh stuff LOL!)

I would Really look forward to us having some kind of a competition for these old arms!

We Do have an annual shoot here on the farm, and I did use mine a little last year. We also shoot European style matchlocks, my latest creation being a short snapping matchlock based on one of Michael T's beloved guns.

If anyone would like to come up (or down) to Alberta in late June, please just drop me a line, you would be more than welcome! (Victorian theme really, but we sneak other things in!)

To try an old arm, I usually tie it to a saw horse and fire it remote with a long string.
At the time of trying the toradar barrel yesterday, I also tried a lovely little Persian barrel, it is very promising though may need the touchhole re-piercing, as it is Much too high and flashed repeatedly.

All the best,
Richard.

Yep the memory grows foggy with age.(Probably due to all the smoke generated at the time!). Of course 4F is priming powder. We would have used 1 or 2F, as you say.
Stu

Pukka Bundook · 13th February 2018, 05:03 AM

Stu,

What doesn't help us, is that some powders like Curtis and Harvey's, used a different grading system.
In their case TS2 was finer than TS6! No 4 powder being the "middle of the road" and used a lot in shotguns. It may well be that you recall No 4 powder, which is a world different from the regular 4F we see today.

All the best,

Richard.

21st December 2016, 06:58 PM	#1
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Torador Matchlock - Finished Hello All. I guess this is actually Part IV of the Torador Barrel Investigation Threads I posted earlier. But thought I would start a new Thread since the gun is now complete. The Torador musket is now re-assembled and complete. It's now safe, and ready to be test fired. Can't wait to try it out. The OAL length is 75" (191cm) with a barrel length of 55.5" (141cm). The original caliber was about .65 (17mm). It has a new steel liner in the bore and a sleeve inside the breech area. It is now a .54 (14mm) caliber smoothbore. It has a new brass front bead sight. The clean break in the forearm wood was repaired, which doesn't even show. The original pan cover was missing. So a new one was made. I added a vent pick and chain. The bead work is just me playing around. LOL Original powder and priming flasks in working order. I will use these to load. Should be much fun. Anyway, picture heavy here. Comments most appreciated. And thanks for looking. Rick Attached Images

21st December 2016, 07:00 PM	#2
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	MORE PICS.......... Attached Images

21st December 2016, 07:02 PM	#3
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	STILL MORE PICS...... Attached Images

21st December 2016, 07:03 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	LAST ONES............ Attached Images

11th February 2018, 07:19 PM	#24
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	WOW Great project loving the whole thing. Richard is right as well, we need to try getting a safe competition started for comparison. Elgood mentions Akbar proofing his Toradors by filing the barrels to the top and that half full barrels had a tendency to burst.It must have a reference to chamber not the barrel? I have always read that with black powder you must have a bullet seated directly on top of it to avoid air space and excessive pressures. We need to see if by their mastery of blacksmithing these bottle necked chambers made them the magnum of their day. So can we use less modern black powder and a filler like cornmeal, grits, cream of wheat? It will be awhile but i'd love to do some testing. Steve

21st December 2016, 07:41 PM	#5
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	VERY NICE!!! I really like the pic with all the accoutrements! We tend to forget what is also carried with guns............ Stu

21st December 2016, 08:08 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi Rick, Great work as always and I'm with Stu on the bits, nicely done. There's quite a lot of Toradors in the U.K., bring backs during the Raj, most of which are in a sorry state stuffed in garages and attics but the bits are much more difficult to find so it's nice to see them together. I've not been about much lately, have you got a liner in the barrel and if you have what is it like to shoot? Regards, Norman.

29th December 2016, 02:48 PM	#9
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Look forward to a range report Rick! Like I said elsewhere, I believe this gun came from Jaipur originally, going by the metal re-enforcing and decorative style. Looks well now. Maybe polish the scratches out on the muzzle end a bit.. :-) R.

3rd January 2017, 08:41 AM	#11
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	It looks great! Can't wait to see the video of you shooting it. And seeing how the shots group at 50 yd. The barrel liner is good not only for reinforcing and safety, but it gives you a standard caliber that's easy to get the proper sized bullet mold for. Do you find that the stock allows you to get a good sight picture in a comfortable and stable shooting stance?

3rd January 2017, 03:46 PM	#14
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Ah Roland, Some say so but others know better! :-) We shoot our EIC Type F's and find if we load and hold them right, we can keep our shots well in the black at 50 yards. (Offhand) At our annual shoot here in Alberta, some of us tried them from a rest. In essence a high rest so we could shoot still standing. With 125 grs of 2F and a .750" ball, we found we could keep our group in the 3 1/2 to 4" at 50 yards. They Did kick more from a rest though! A good friend in the UK has shot well with a musket for a long time, and has found that even with small charges of powder, (85 grs) he can shoot a score in the mid 90's and has won quite a few Golds in National and international events, three or four in the last year! For his shooting this pal uses a patched ball, whereas we us Bill Curtis' method of a thick felt wad above and below the ball, well lubed. Also, I've wanted to try a Torador for some time now, and have a barrel I'm working on, fine -boring it to smooth it up. What got me interested in these and trying them, are the contemporary accounts from the Indian sub-continent of matchlock Toradors out-ranging and being far more accurate than the British Service musket. ( Going by the above re. accuracy, I believe it wasn't so much the musket as the compromised loading for speed that made the musket less effective than it could have been) So Rick!...as mine is not yet ready to fire,m we wait with baited breath for your reports! Roland, A good book with references to Toradors in use is "Sahib", by Richard Holmes, and of course Lord Eggerton has quotes from eye -witnesses regarding horsemen with matchlocks shooting small objects as they pass at a gallop at a range of 20-40 yards and "rarely miss". All best, Richard.

4th January 2017, 05:23 PM	#16
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Roland, Yes, such results are possible with the smooth-bore. Note these loadings are with a closer fitting ball then was standard, where a paper cartridge was used, but useful shooting can still be done with the latter. I too like the 'boom' of black! Best wishes, Richard.

7th January 2017, 08:00 PM	#19
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Roland. Thanks for your comments. Yes, I think it turned out well. Actually, I'll start with about 60 grains of FFG for 25-yards, and work my way up from there. I'll try both patched ball and unpatched with over and under wads as Richard mentions and see what works best. That would be a typical starting load for a .54 smoothbore. The stell liner will handle much more than that. Hi Richard. Yes, a video would almost be required shooting this one for the first time. LOL Glad to hear your barrel is coming along. Something you might find interesting: The barrelsmith mentioned that the original forge-welded breech plug was done in such a manner (at least on my barrel) that it was virtually one piece and would have safely with stood the normal pressure of the black powder. JFYI Rick

10th January 2017, 04:14 PM	#20
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Thanks for the info via your gunsmith friend re, the "integral' breechplug, Rick. Good to know as mine is staying in place. :-) I just got half a matchlock shipped up here, (!) Yes, it is coming in 2 separate packages. It's that one from Jaipur with the wee birds on the wrist and badly broken stock. I am in high hopes the barrel is good, when it arrives! Look forward to seeing your 'footage' when you fire this one. :-) R.

13th January 2017, 02:50 PM	#21
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Update; My Jaipur sporting matchlock barrel has arrived Rick, and it is a Lovely barrel! Bore is very good And! ....It has No chamber at the breech!!!! Smooth and a true cylinder all the way down. Bit of light rust inside and out, but compared to many torador barrels, it's a lovely one. Had to share. :-) 4 other barrels arrived at same time and the Persian ones are fantastic. So slim and light! 2 more torador barrels as well, from up in Oudh I believe.. Bores a bit rougher & no time yet to chech for chambers but think they will surely have them. More as and when. :-) Richard.

14th January 2017, 03:21 AM	#23
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	I will do as you request Rick, re. another thread when I get at the broken stock. Yes, it can be mended, because I've decided it Has to be mended,...but as yet I have to figure out how best, exactly. :-) Persian barrels had lived in Oman I believe, by the part stocks that came with them. Still, I believe they Are Persian. One is near identical to an example in Tipu Sultan's arsenal.....which maybe gives me legit reason to stock one up that way! lol... Odd thing is, it says that his barrel in Indian, re-used! "The Firearms of Tipu Sultan, Page 128 & 9. I don't have a copy of the book, but a pal sent me a file showing it, but can't seem to copy it.

11th February 2018, 10:13 PM	#27
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Torador finished Hi Stu, I have used the tie it down method too, good job I Did. That the film we have been using to demonstrate chambers uses dried Dung Or dirt between powder and ball. Akbar was a renaissance man he is credited with coming up with spiraling barrels, thus making them much stronger and safer Steve Last edited by archer; 12th February 2018 at 03:58 AM.

12th February 2018, 03:49 AM	#28
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	A very nice thread gents, I have just enjoyed the last few new comments. Steve, In translation we may well have lost the true meaning of how Akbar had the barrels tested. A full Chamber sounds more sense than a full barrel! This also begs the question, Why a chamber would be constructed so large that it was (apparently ) common to only half fill it.? Loading these chambered barrels appears to have taken longer, and why they were continued in use after corned powder I do not know. We do read that some Very high quality powder was produced over there, So I for one can't come up with a good reason for what we find today. Stu, The powder you used years back would be coarse, like 1F or 2F I would imagine. 4F is priming powder for matchlocks and such, and would more or less detonate in a barrel if used as the main charge. Regarding air space, a small airspace in a cartridge is completely fine with black powder, Some International shooting friends load in this manner, but please do not give me grief about it, because I do not! :-) Steve, again if I may, Trying your cow dung yesterday worked very well. The toradar went off like a rocket. :-) It packed nicely in the chamber so appears to be very cheap form of wadding! (Here on the farm, that is!....Dried, Not fresh stuff LOL!) I would Really look forward to us having some kind of a competition for these old arms! We Do have an annual shoot here on the farm, and I did use mine a little last year. We also shoot European style matchlocks, my latest creation being a short snapping matchlock based on one of Michael T's beloved guns. If anyone would like to come up (or down) to Alberta in late June, please just drop me a line, you would be more than welcome! (Victorian theme really, but we sneak other things in!) To try an old arm, I usually tie it to a saw horse and fire it remote with a long string. At the time of trying the toradar barrel yesterday, I also tried a lovely little Persian barrel, it is very promising though may need the touchhole re-piercing, as it is Much too high and flashed repeatedly. All the best, Richard.

13th February 2018, 05:03 AM	#30
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Stu, What doesn't help us, is that some powders like Curtis and Harvey's, used a different grading system. In their case TS2 was finer than TS6! No 4 powder being the "middle of the road" and used a lot in shotguns. It may well be that you recall No 4 powder, which is a world different from the regular 4F we see today. All the best, Richard.