Spanish rapier

[VANDERNOTTE]

buenas tardes hombres de armas
I put on the table for comment one of my two spanich rapiers
I hope is enough good for the forum and fernando
mis saludos
jacques

[Foxbat]

Hello,

This is a composite piece. The blade could be from 17th century, of reasonable quality, judging from nor too great pictures. The guard is most likely later, 18th century. Grip is also a later replacement, and the 17th century pommel, of popular form, is also likely a later addition. Of course you know that one quillon is broken off.

[fernando]

Hola Jacques,
Nice sword you have there.
The guard cup (taza) type is what we call in portuguese Margarida (daizy = margarita) and i wouldn't reject the idea that is also from the XVII century.
The drawing you made with the blade inscription is rather hard to read or understand. It would be nice to have close up pictures of the blade with the real inscriptions, from both sides. Maybe it represents the sword maker's name and some of us could find out who he would be.
You should also look in the recazo and watch for a possible maker's mark (symbol).

Saludos

.

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by fernando

The guard cup (taza) type is what we call in portuguese Margarida (daizy = margarita) and i wouldn't reject the idea that is also from the XVII century.

.

The style of the taza could be consistent with the 17th century, but the way the guard attaches to the pommel strongly suggests later period. Is it possible that the taza and the guard were mated later in their life? Yes, but the pictures do not provide evidence of that.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

The style of the taza could be consistent with the 17th century, but the way the guard attaches to the pommel strongly suggests later period. Is it possible that the taza and the guard were mated later in their life? Yes, but the pictures do not provide evidence of that.

Actually this guard is attached to the pommel in a very unnatural way. Yes, the mating of both guard and cup at a later stage is, as you say, possible but unlikely. With pictures taken in different angles, one could see if there are any extra screw holes or other signs of having refixed both parts. Amazingly this is a more remote probability in Portuguese cup hilt swords as, usually, the cup is welded (and not screwed) to the guard.
We must say usually as, one must not ignore that within a large range of time including the concerned period, weapons smiths would often follow the 'Iberian' fashion.
On the other hand, the method of attaching the guard to the pommel would be a system mainly adopted by military. Many exceptions to this habit clearly showed alterations later made in original (civilian) guards.
The example discussed here, 'rapier' blade and all, must have been born a civilian sword.
Yes, better pictures would (probably) help to clarify things.

Mejores y diferentes fotos, Jacques ... es posible ?

[VANDERNOTTE]

gracias fernando
give me a few day for new pic
un abarzo
jacques

[VANDERNOTTE]

there the pic unfortunatly the pic of the blade are terrible
no inscription in the taza
regard
jacques

[fernando]

Gracias por las fotos, Jacques.
A pity that the pictures of the blade inscriptions are not so bright. It looks like the picture in the first post was more precise.
Juddging by the letters possible to read in your drawing, if the inscription contains the sword smith name, it doesn't appear in the Palomar nomina, which you may consult HERE (post #152, page 6)
The taza is very nice ... and so is the pommel; even the screw now appears to be from the period, .
Maybe the whole sword is an original set, all admittedly from the XVIII century; except for the grip, a replacement so common to take place.
Still is possible that this is a sword made in Toledo, for a civilian ... this judging by the narrow blade and hilt decoration.
What do you think, Foxbat ?
PS:
Can you tell the length and width of the blade, Jacques ?

.

[Foxbat]

Yes, a civilian 18th century rapier, and I too like the blade and the guard, but I don't like the interface between the pommel and the guard, it is too crude, indicating to me that originally there was a larger pommel.

With something like that I would definitely cover the grip with new wire, the sword will look much better that way.

[VANDERNOTTE]

fernando,disculpas por olvidar
wide 22mm
blade 99cm
total 110cm
saludos
jacques

[Foxbat]

Looking at the inscription, it could be ..rena en Toledo, or something close to it.

One name I found that could possibly be it, is Baena, since it is easy to confuse R and A in that script. There was a sword smith Baena Antonio de Toledo, don't have any other information on him.

The other side is hard to read.

[fernando]

Oh, a rather narrow long blade ... rapier type; good for fencing !
Muy bien, Jacques

[VANDERNOTTE]

wallace collection catalogues vol II is a good place for looking blade
inscription but Idon't so nothing similar
gracias por el interes a ambos
jacques

[Jim McDougall]

That is a most impressive grouping of swords Jacques, and you are clearly a most discerning collector! This rapier is intriguing despite its obvious disparancies as it represents times in which earlier traditions were interacting with dramatic changes in swordsmanship, trade and colonial situations. In the Spanish colonies many traditions and arms considered antiquated prevailed through the 18th century and even into the 19th.

While this rapier clearly represents 17th century Spanish forms of the beloved cuphilt so well known, there are variables which I think do place it in the 18th century. I agree that the pommel, though very similar to the flattened sphere types typically seen on 17th century examples, seems somewhat apart. Clearly the screw attachment to the pommel is not characteristic of 17th century Spanish rapiers, though seems to have become used in the 18th century on some of the Spanish military forms.

The blade most interestingly recalls blades of this type which although 17th century in form were produced in Solingen using of course prominent Spanish names. One apparant shipment of these was found on a shipwreck off Panama (about 40 blades) with some of the blades using the JESUS MARIA commonly used by Tomas Ayala of Toledo and the punzone of Toledo.
It is known that Ayala was one of the favored names spuriously used by Solingen smiths in the 18th century. The fact that these narrow blades, which had been superceded by heavier 'arming' blades even on some cuphilts of earlier style, were being sent to the colonies suggesting that there the colonials were still holding to earlier styles and traditions.These blades were likely to repair the fragile and often substandard blades of German make in this same standard.
It is important to note that Toledo as a swordmaking center, had actually been in decline through the 17th century, and by the 18th was virtually ceased. Most of the original and often famed smiths had by then either left or ceased and foreign makers in degree had come in, most likely of course from Solingen. This is the reason so many 'Toledo' blades are actually German produced, particularly in the 18th century. King Carlos III tried to revitalize the Toledo enterprise in 1780, but never returned to its original glory.

During these 18th century times it would seem that these kind of anomalies were somewhat well established, especially in colonial settings, where earlier forms and traditions continued apart from modern styles and forms in the Continental fashions.
I would say the wide 'collared' ferrules, the bare wood grip, fabricated pommel and unusually writhen guard and quillons using 18th century pegging to pommel screwed on are all indicators of this kind of plausible scenario for this piece. The lobated taza corresponds to highly pierced examples in Italy with this same feature c.1650s (Boccia & Coelho, #677/679) and Norman hilt type #103 shown c.1630s . The interpretive form of this cupguard suggests this may be a revival of earlier traditional style.

I would add that the apparant 'magical glyphs' and symbols within the inscriptions stamped and syntax seem to suggest German applications on 18th century blades.






All the best,
Jim

[VANDERNOTTE]

very,very interestin jim I agree whys you about the colony I find very strange sing
I have a french small sword silver hilted made between 1768-1775
whis a tomas de ayala blade on it if you interested I sent more pic
agradecido por tu interes y tu tiempo
regard
jacques

[Foxbat]

The combinations of 18th century smallsword hilts with earlier, usually 17th century rapier blades, usually shortened, were extremely popular.

One must cringe at the thought of all those beautiful rapier hilts being thrown away when the fashion changed, but we can't change the course of history.

Beautiful hilt, that in the picture.

[Chris Evans]

Jim,


An excellent and most informative post!

I would like to add that by the 18th century the rapier was generally considered obsolete, though its use lingered on in Spain, probably more so in the countryside than near the royal court. Here we must keep in mind that the Burbons, a French royal family, with their ascendancy to the throne after the Spanish war of succession at the beginning of that century, imposed French customs on the upper nobility, which in this context meant the adoption of the small sword.

Cheers
Chris

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much for the very kind words Chris, and you bring up a most valid point, that monarchial changes were very much in play with the changes taking place in these times. The schools of fence were quite different over time in developing, and the French style drove the development of the smallsword from the walking swords already in use on the Continent.
With this very nice smallsword Jacques has shown, it is interesting to see the apparant hybridization of the earlier style Spanish blades being produced through the 18th century with the Tomas de Aiala name appearing on a French smallsword which would have had a quite different blade normally.
Tomas ceased making swords in around 1630, so it is clear he could not be the maker of a c.1765 blade on a French smallsword. His name by then had become a sort of trademark for a blade style produced by German makers.
All the best,
Jim