Hi everyone

Antoine M. · 20th June 2006, 06:30 PM

Hello!

My name is Antoine Marçal, I have been a bladesmith in Québec for a few years now and was refered to your site by a friend who saw my growing interest in south asian blade. There is a variety of design in this part of the world that I find very compelling.
This forum is a wonderful place filled with informations on weapons that are sadly not very well known, thank's!

Here is an dha inspired short sword I completed. It is of 300 layer damascus in a san mai construction, 13 1/2 inches long, 20 inches of total length. I've mixed in a little japanese in there with the addition of a small habaki, but with a european construction ( there is a ricasso!)
I would be happy to receive your comment on this piece, to have your impressions on this experiment.

By the way, it is for sale. E-mail or pm me for details. I don't put the price as I 'm not sure it is the right place to do so.
To the moderators,If this post should be in the swap forum, please send it where it belongs. I wanted to introduce myself and my work first.

Looking foward to your comments. I have quite a bit of reading to do!!

Antoine Marçal
marcalantoine yahoo.ca

Ian · 20th June 2006, 06:59 PM

Hi Antoine.

Welcome to the Forum.

This part of the Forum is for discussing the weapons. As long as folks don't get into commercial discussions or comments, your post can reside here. People should PM or email you about orders and sales.

That is a handsome rendition of a dha. Many of the older dha/darb show evidence of some lamination, but are not as prominently laminated as the piece you produced. Pamor is not a feature of Burmese, Thai, Cambodian or Lao blades.

Did you do the scabbard also? Nice ensemble.

Ian.

VANDOO · 20th June 2006, 07:00 PM

WELCOME TO THE FORUM

WE CAN ALWAYS USE THE KNOWLEGE OF SOMEONE WHO CAN MAKE SUCH A BEAUTIFUL KNIFE

. I ESPECIALLY LIKE THE TEMPER LINE IT IS SORT OF LIKE THE JAPANESE CLOUD TYPE BUT MORE DISTINT AND DIFFERENT. IF YOU LOOK AT IT ONE WAY IT COULD BE DRIPPING WATER OR THE LARGE SPOT COULD BE A DRAGON OR FOO DOG RUNNING. A VERY INTERESTING ITEM ,I HOPE YOU CAN FIND LOTS OF INSPIRATION HERE ON THE FORUM AS WELL AS KNOWLEGE AND FUN. I WILL LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING MORE OF YOUR WORK IN THE FUTURE.

Antoine M. · 20th June 2006, 09:48 PM

Thank' for the kind words!

Interesting Ian, is there a reason for those country not to have developped pamor?
The pattern is bold on the blade because I etched it in feric chloride, an acid that brings a lot of contrast. Ancient smith were using vinegar or other mild acidic solution (in the west I heard about urine as well...) that doesn't bring out such contrast. Even a careful polishing will alow to see the pattern in a very nice subtle way, in japanese blade for exemple, I think the chinese also.

Vandoo, it is not a temper line but a piece of steel sandwiched between damascus. The wavy lines and dots were created by drilling holes trough the damascus until the bottom of it touches the steel core. Forging the edge brings the core "up".
It is very organic.I wanted to have this blade a river flowing look. There is a river pebble on the scabbard to "attached" it to the blade ( yes made the scabbard too, it is lacquered maple).

Thank's for the welcome I'm sure to find a lot of interesting things here! And add the little knowledge I have!

Antoine M.

Zan · 21st June 2006, 02:20 AM

Salut du Québec !
Warm welcome from Montreal !
Your work is impressive. I am very happy to discover such a bladesmith in my own province.
Sincerely,
Zan

Mark · 21st June 2006, 02:30 AM

Welcome to the forum, Antoine. And your dha is so beautiful (I think I've said that a few times before

)!

As for pamor, pattern welding just does not seem to have caught on in most parts of continental southeast Asia. Laminated (sanmei) is fairly common, though, both sandwiched steel and inserted edge. I have come across a literature reference to an interesting "jacketing" method used in Burma around the turn of the 20th century. An iron blade core would be headed, and a thin sheet of steel hammered over and welded to it. The jacket could be renewed periodically as it wore out.

I have a small dha (the blade is about 6 inches long) that is possibly from Cambodia (though I am not 100% certain). It is rather corroded from having been in the ground, but was polished and etched on one side just before I bought it. It either shows very complex lamination, or perhaps is the result on a few "rejacketing" cycles.

Antoine M. · 21st June 2006, 03:48 AM

Salut Zan!
Hé ben le monde est p'tit! Heureux de rencontrer un compatriote et merci du compliment!

Back to english now...

Thank's Mark, nice to see you!
A nice dah and the pattern looks very interesting. The bronze handle is quite nice too, is the handle/guard cast in one piece?
By the way, is there a book exploring the subject of pattern welding and/or steel making methods in asia?
Sorry, many questions but I feel like I entered a candy store!

Thank's

Antoine M.

Ian · 21st June 2006, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antoine M.

By the way, is there a book exploring the subject of pattern welding and/or steel making methods in asia?
Sorry, many questions but I feel like I entered a candy store!

So far none of us have found a good book exploring steel making or pattern welding in mainland SE Asia -- yet! Mark has some bibliographic information on his web site, as I recall, and there are tidbits in a fair number of diverse sources. But nothing substantial.

Perhaps you will stumble on the "mother lode" and share it with us all.

Ian.

PUFF · 21st June 2006, 05:27 AM

Nice forging and Dha interpretation

In deed, old blades do use fold steel. In the old day,though ,forge folding do not show any pattern, its main purpose are slag reduction and surface carburizing. I just finish electroclean a blade which has a sign of fold steel. Will post a pic in our previous fold steel thread.

Typical Dha blades do not have prominent ricasso. Their tang 's forced into the ferrule-encased hilt. I do like the integral ricasso like this as long as the integral part 's not so heavy that its balance point move too much backward. A little bigger (thicker and longer) ricasso would be nice for its appearance could be similar to typical ferrule (Dama pattern is a plus

).

Traditional Dha 's flat or slightly convex ground with little or no bevel. Your one looks fine (with a bit westernized feel

).

It would be nice to have the hilt upward (Lanna style) or downward (Burman style). A hardwood hilt on this kind of blade usually has (profiled) round butt rather than Tanto style cut-off butt

. You can also visit Mark's page and study his sample. He has a superb collection of Burman knives and Dha(s).

Mark · 21st June 2006, 04:44 PM

Though now fused by oxidation, the grip and guard originally were separate.

I have not found many sources on iron/steel production methods in SEA, but I will forward to you what I have. A nice one I found is a 1907 monograph article on the iron and steel industry in Burma, which is were I found the description of the jacketing method. There are a few interesting recent articles on excavations of iron smelters in Burma as well (I will have to locate the precise references). I have found some references to the use of local vs. imported iron & steel as well.

Specific information to follow.

Antoine M. · 22nd June 2006, 01:10 AM

Thank's Mark, I appreciate!

Antoine

Mark · 22nd June 2006, 04:32 PM

"Early Metallurgy, Trade and Urban Centres in Thailand and Southeast Asia," Glover, et al. (eds), White Lotus Press, 1992 is a compilation of 13 essays, which contain a fair amount of information on the industry, but nothing about swords in particular.

Bell, "A Monograph on Iron and Steel Work in Burma," Superintendant of Gov't Printing, Rangoon, 1907, has the most early information that I have found about sword making. I have it as a PDF file, and will try and e-mail it to you, but it is rather large.

Farrars & Farrars, "Burma," Sampson Law Marston & Co., London, 1908 (recently re-printed) is the second-best source of information on the sword industry in Burma, but it is very little objectively speaking.

A contemporary article on Thai swordsmithing is Boyd, "Blades of Bangkok," Blade Magazine, March, 2000, pp. 136-143. Contact Krause Publications, Inc, Attn. Jackie Baldwin, 700 E. State St., Iola, WI 54990-0001, FAX: 715-445-4087 to get a reprint.

20th June 2006, 06:30 PM	#1
Antoine M. Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Québec, Canada Posts: 8	Hi everyone Hello! My name is Antoine Marçal, I have been a bladesmith in Québec for a few years now and was refered to your site by a friend who saw my growing interest in south asian blade. There is a variety of design in this part of the world that I find very compelling. This forum is a wonderful place filled with informations on weapons that are sadly not very well known, thank's! Here is an dha inspired short sword I completed. It is of 300 layer damascus in a san mai construction, 13 1/2 inches long, 20 inches of total length. I've mixed in a little japanese in there with the addition of a small habaki, but with a european construction ( there is a ricasso!) I would be happy to receive your comment on this piece, to have your impressions on this experiment. By the way, it is for sale. E-mail or pm me for details. I don't put the price as I 'm not sure it is the right place to do so. To the moderators,If this post should be in the swap forum, please send it where it belongs. I wanted to introduce myself and my work first. Looking foward to your comments. I have quite a bit of reading to do!! Antoine Marçal marcalantoine yahoo.ca Attached Images

20th June 2006, 06:59 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Welcome ... Hi Antoine. Welcome to the Forum. This part of the Forum is for discussing the weapons. As long as folks don't get into commercial discussions or comments, your post can reside here. People should PM or email you about orders and sales. That is a handsome rendition of a dha. Many of the older dha/darb show evidence of some lamination, but are not as prominently laminated as the piece you produced. Pamor is not a feature of Burmese, Thai, Cambodian or Lao blades. Did you do the scabbard also? Nice ensemble. Ian.

21st June 2006, 02:30 AM	#6
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Welcome to the forum, Antoine. And your dha is so beautiful (I think I've said that a few times before )! As for pamor, pattern welding just does not seem to have caught on in most parts of continental southeast Asia. Laminated (sanmei) is fairly common, though, both sandwiched steel and inserted edge. I have come across a literature reference to an interesting "jacketing" method used in Burma around the turn of the 20th century. An iron blade core would be headed, and a thin sheet of steel hammered over and welded to it. The jacket could be renewed periodically as it wore out. I have a small dha (the blade is about 6 inches long) that is possibly from Cambodia (though I am not 100% certain). It is rather corroded from having been in the ground, but was polished and etched on one side just before I bought it. It either shows very complex lamination, or perhaps is the result on a few "rejacketing" cycles. Attached Images

20th June 2006, 07:00 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	WELCOME TO THE FORUM WE CAN ALWAYS USE THE KNOWLEGE OF SOMEONE WHO CAN MAKE SUCH A BEAUTIFUL KNIFE . I ESPECIALLY LIKE THE TEMPER LINE IT IS SORT OF LIKE THE JAPANESE CLOUD TYPE BUT MORE DISTINT AND DIFFERENT. IF YOU LOOK AT IT ONE WAY IT COULD BE DRIPPING WATER OR THE LARGE SPOT COULD BE A DRAGON OR FOO DOG RUNNING. A VERY INTERESTING ITEM ,I HOPE YOU CAN FIND LOTS OF INSPIRATION HERE ON THE FORUM AS WELL AS KNOWLEGE AND FUN. I WILL LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING MORE OF YOUR WORK IN THE FUTURE.

20th June 2006, 09:48 PM	#4
Antoine M. Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Québec, Canada Posts: 8	Thank' for the kind words! Interesting Ian, is there a reason for those country not to have developped pamor? The pattern is bold on the blade because I etched it in feric chloride, an acid that brings a lot of contrast. Ancient smith were using vinegar or other mild acidic solution (in the west I heard about urine as well...) that doesn't bring out such contrast. Even a careful polishing will alow to see the pattern in a very nice subtle way, in japanese blade for exemple, I think the chinese also. Vandoo, it is not a temper line but a piece of steel sandwiched between damascus. The wavy lines and dots were created by drilling holes trough the damascus until the bottom of it touches the steel core. Forging the edge brings the core "up". It is very organic.I wanted to have this blade a river flowing look. There is a river pebble on the scabbard to "attached" it to the blade ( yes made the scabbard too, it is lacquered maple). Thank's for the welcome I'm sure to find a lot of interesting things here! And add the little knowledge I have! Antoine M.

21st June 2006, 02:20 AM	#5
Zan Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Montréal, Province of Québec, Canada Posts: 46	Salut du Québec ! Warm welcome from Montreal ! Your work is impressive. I am very happy to discover such a bladesmith in my own province. Sincerely, Zan

21st June 2006, 03:48 AM	#7
Antoine M. Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Québec, Canada Posts: 8	Salut Zan! Hé ben le monde est p'tit! Heureux de rencontrer un compatriote et merci du compliment! Back to english now... Thank's Mark, nice to see you! A nice dah and the pattern looks very interesting. The bronze handle is quite nice too, is the handle/guard cast in one piece? By the way, is there a book exploring the subject of pattern welding and/or steel making methods in asia? Sorry, many questions but I feel like I entered a candy store! Thank's Antoine M.

21st June 2006, 05:27 AM	#9
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Nice forging and Dha interpretation In deed, old blades do use fold steel. In the old day,though ,forge folding do not show any pattern, its main purpose are slag reduction and surface carburizing. I just finish electroclean a blade which has a sign of fold steel. Will post a pic in our previous fold steel thread. Typical Dha blades do not have prominent ricasso. Their tang 's forced into the ferrule-encased hilt. I do like the integral ricasso like this as long as the integral part 's not so heavy that its balance point move too much backward. A little bigger (thicker and longer) ricasso would be nice for its appearance could be similar to typical ferrule (Dama pattern is a plus ). Traditional Dha 's flat or slightly convex ground with little or no bevel. Your one looks fine (with a bit westernized feel ). It would be nice to have the hilt upward (Lanna style) or downward (Burman style). A hardwood hilt on this kind of blade usually has (profiled) round butt rather than Tanto style cut-off butt . You can also visit Mark's page and study his sample. He has a superb collection of Burman knives and Dha(s).

21st June 2006, 04:44 PM	#10
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Though now fused by oxidation, the grip and guard originally were separate. I have not found many sources on iron/steel production methods in SEA, but I will forward to you what I have. A nice one I found is a 1907 monograph article on the iron and steel industry in Burma, which is were I found the description of the jacketing method. There are a few interesting recent articles on excavations of iron smelters in Burma as well (I will have to locate the precise references). I have found some references to the use of local vs. imported iron & steel as well. Specific information to follow.

22nd June 2006, 01:10 AM	#11
Antoine M. Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Québec, Canada Posts: 8	Thank's Mark, I appreciate! Antoine

22nd June 2006, 04:32 PM	#12
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	"Early Metallurgy, Trade and Urban Centres in Thailand and Southeast Asia," Glover, et al. (eds), White Lotus Press, 1992 is a compilation of 13 essays, which contain a fair amount of information on the industry, but nothing about swords in particular. Bell, "A Monograph on Iron and Steel Work in Burma," Superintendant of Gov't Printing, Rangoon, 1907, has the most early information that I have found about sword making. I have it as a PDF file, and will try and e-mail it to you, but it is rather large. Farrars & Farrars, "Burma," Sampson Law Marston & Co., London, 1908 (recently re-printed) is the second-best source of information on the sword industry in Burma, but it is very little objectively speaking. A contemporary article on Thai swordsmithing is Boyd, "Blades of Bangkok," Blade Magazine, March, 2000, pp. 136-143. Contact Krause Publications, Inc, Attn. Jackie Baldwin, 700 E. State St., Iola, WI 54990-0001, FAX: 715-445-4087 to get a reprint.