A Nice Pakayun...and questions!

CharlesS · 6th March 2013, 06:15 PM

I was able to pick up this nice, elegant, pakayun this past weekend.

I have several questions about it.

1. Are the (lime?) motifs on the scabbard talismanic or decoration only?

2. Isn't floral engraving, as seen on the forte, somewhat unusual on a pakayun?

3. Is there any significance to the chiselled "X"s found near the forte (in a floral motif) and tip of the spine? There is also what appears to be a version of 'the endless knot' at the forte.

4. Do the aligned triangles(note the groupings of 3, 4, and 6 triangles) at the mouth of the scabbard have a significance?....talismanic???

5. Is European style fullering(though far from perfectly executed in this case) often seen on pakayuns?

Thanks in advance for any answers and input!!!

VVV · 6th March 2013, 08:04 PM

Nice find Charles!

Why don't you bring it to Baltimore so we can discuss it together?
Unlike for Dayak and Malay motifs it's hard to find anything on Murut talismanic beliefs on swords.

Michael

CharlesS · 6th March 2013, 08:16 PM

Thanks Michael....can do!

Sajen · 6th March 2013, 09:31 PM

Can't be from help but have to say that it's a beauty!

asomotif · 6th March 2013, 11:07 PM

Wow !

Very nice example,
Grooved blade, I think this is the most elaborate blade I have seen on a pakayun.
laminated, grooved, decoration on the sides and spine.

stunning piece. congrats.

Battara · 7th March 2013, 12:27 AM

Na, recently made piece of junk. Throw it in the dumpster (then I'll go dumpster diving

).

Maurice · 7th March 2013, 01:00 PM

Congratulations with this nice pakayun Charles..... It's surely a beauty!

Maurice

VANDOO · 7th March 2013, 08:52 PM

MOST EVERYTHING SEEMS TO BE IN TRADITIONAL MURUT FORM SCABBARD DECORATIONS ECT. THE BLADE IS IN THE PROPER SHAPE BUT THE FANCY ENGRAVING ON THE BLADE IS NEW TO ME. I DO SEEM TO REMEMBER SEEING FULLERS ON A BLADE AND PERHAPS SOME MARKS ON A BLADE SPINE. THE BANDS ON THE SCABBARD ARE USUALLY MADE FROM SOMETHING LIKE A TIN CAN NOT COPPER.
UNFORTUNATELY I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT MURUT BELIEFS OR TAILSMANIC MARKINGS BUT AM SURE ALL DESIGNS HAD SOME TRIBAL MEANING WHICH MAY STILL BE KNOWN OR NOT.?
I SUSPECT THIS SWORD WAS CUSTOM MADE EITHER BY COMMISION OF THE OWNER OR PERHAPS FOR A GIFT OR PRESENTATION. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN QUITE IMPRESSIVE WHEN NEW (NOT THAT IT ISN'T NOW

) IMAGINE IT WITH THE BRASS SHINING LIKE GOLD AND THE COPPER BANDS BLAZING RED AGAINST THE BLACK WOOD WITH THE STARK AND COMPLETE LIME INFILL AND A FRESH BELT OR CORD.

SOME GUYS HAVE ALL THE LUCK AND GET DA GOOD STUFF

CharlesS · 7th March 2013, 10:41 PM

I see many similarities with this one...including fullering, the scabbard style, etc.

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2992

VVV · 8th March 2013, 07:20 AM

Here are some features from mine with a "Shelford-style hilt" as a comparison of motifs on the really old ones.

Michael

paolo · 8th March 2013, 03:20 PM

He CharlesS http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2992 in mine. Sure there are similarities, but the blade (laminated but with a lesser visible pattern) haven't decorations on the spine and on the sides, and the scabbard is less gorgeous. Your one seems to me, as wrote VANDOO, a presentation sword, however really a beauty.
Paolo

VANDOO · 8th March 2013, 07:53 PM

NOW I HAVE SEEN TWO WITH DECORATIVE ENGRAVING AT THE FORTE OF THE BLADE. THIS WOULD MAKE ME THINK SOMEONE WAS MAKEING THESE IN THE SAME AREA AND TIME RANGE. I SUSPECT THEY ARE FEW IN NUMBERS CONSIDERING THE MAJORITY I HAVE SEEN DID NOT HAVE THIS. PERHAPS THIS WAS BECAUSE OF COST OR THEY WERE LIMITED AT THE SOURCE AS PRESENTATION PIECES ONLY TO BE GIVEN ON SPECIAL OCCASIONS TO PEOPLE OF HIGH STATUS. AS TO WHO HAD THEM MADE MURUT OR OUTSIDERS IS HARD TO SAY BUT I PERSONALLY THINK THESE TWO DESIGNS SHOW OUTSIDE INFLUENCE BEYOND BORNEO. JUST A GUT FEELING.

BUT THE SWORDS LOOK TO HAVE BEEN MADE IN BORNEO AND THE DESIGNS ON THE SPINE ARE TRADITIONAL ENOUGH.
DECORATED BLADES ARE NOT TOO UNCOMMON IN BORNEO ON THE MANDAU OR JIMPUL SO WHY NOT ON THE PAKAYUN PERHAPS ONE WITH THE PIERCED BLADE WITH BRASS OR SILVER INSERTS MAY SHOW UP.

AS TOO THE IRON STRAPS ON SCABBARDS THE THICKNESS OF THE STRAPS WAS ABOUT THE SAME AS AN OLD CAN NOT NECESSARLY MADE OF ONE.

VVV A PICTURE OF THE POMMEL ON YOUR EXAMPLE WOULD BE NICE I HAVE ONLY SEEN ONE OR TWO OF THAT SIMULAR FORM.

Maurice · 8th March 2013, 08:43 PM

Just for comparison!
Mine is by far as in mint condition as Charles's pakayun (scabbardtip and scabbardmouth are damaged, carrying belt is missing and ratan is broken at the handle).
The blade also has two fullers and the handle is quite different as usual and has wonderfull patina, which made me kept this one over several other pakayuns I once owned.

Maurice

Spunjer · 8th March 2013, 08:50 PM

so cool how that pakayun turned out, charles! pretty hefty piece, that pakayun is...

VVV · 9th March 2013, 12:13 PM

Barry, I see no reason why a Murut wouldn't have done those blade decorations?
It seems that they show up on older and more elaborate Murut swords.
I don't want to kidnap Charles' thread but the hilt of mine has been discussed at an earlier thread (when it belonged to Ben/Dajak).
In the first posts are more examples of pakayun with fullers.

Michael

T. Koch · 9th March 2013, 12:52 PM

Hi Charles! Congratulations on that most awesome paka! It's great to see it in such a complete state! Yours is of the type with the parallel spine and edge. Personally I prefer the flaring blade type, but in this case I think the fullers and incisions compensate nicely.

I attach below a picture of user Dajak's impressive paka collection, which displays a variety of blades.

The decorations on yours are typically Murut IMO. The squares on the scabbard as well as the four-leaf petals on the spine are very characteristic. In general the Murut decorations seem to be more "cubic" and less organic than the decorations of the Dayak and when motives indeed are of natural form, they display a vegetative type, presumably due to the Islamic influence on the Murut expression?

What I find really strange about this one, is that the textile placed under the point of belt attachment, seem to be of the exact same type as the one on mine, I posted some time ago. -Burgundy with little white flowers, right? Maybe our original owners shopped in the same place?

I am familiar with Dayak's opinion that the hilts started out as being complex and then became simpler due to "more easy to make". As far as we are talking evolution of pre-20th cent. SEA arms in general, I don't agree with him though, but align my thoughts more along those of fx. Kaudern. I'll refrain from OT'ing Charles' thread and save my thoughts on the subject for a separate thread.

Maurice, your paka is fabulous too - I've drooled over it many many times.

I think it's probably my most favorite of all the pakayun hilts I've seen: The swooping leaves between the pegs as well as the well-carved little knobs are fantastic. Not to mention that the well-worn patina of the wood is so chocolate'y-delicious, you could eat it!

Thanks so much for sharing and cheers all, - Thor

6th March 2013, 06:15 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	A Nice Pakayun...and questions! I was able to pick up this nice, elegant, pakayun this past weekend. I have several questions about it. 1. Are the (lime?) motifs on the scabbard talismanic or decoration only? 2. Isn't floral engraving, as seen on the forte, somewhat unusual on a pakayun? 3. Is there any significance to the chiselled "X"s found near the forte (in a floral motif) and tip of the spine? There is also what appears to be a version of 'the endless knot' at the forte. 4. Do the aligned triangles(note the groupings of 3, 4, and 6 triangles) at the mouth of the scabbard have a significance?....talismanic??? 5. Is European style fullering(though far from perfectly executed in this case) often seen on pakayuns? Thanks in advance for any answers and input!!! Attached Images Last edited by CharlesS; 6th March 2013 at 06:55 PM.

8th March 2013, 07:20 AM	#10
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Here are some features from mine with a "Shelford-style hilt" as a comparison of motifs on the really old ones. Michael Attached Images

8th March 2013, 08:43 PM	#13
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,352	Just for comparison! Mine is by far as in mint condition as Charles's pakayun (scabbardtip and scabbardmouth are damaged, carrying belt is missing and ratan is broken at the handle). The blade also has two fullers and the handle is quite different as usual and has wonderfull patina, which made me kept this one over several other pakayuns I once owned. Maurice Attached Images

9th March 2013, 12:52 PM	#16
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Hi Charles! Congratulations on that most awesome paka! It's great to see it in such a complete state! Yours is of the type with the parallel spine and edge. Personally I prefer the flaring blade type, but in this case I think the fullers and incisions compensate nicely. I attach below a picture of user Dajak's impressive paka collection, which displays a variety of blades. The decorations on yours are typically Murut IMO. The squares on the scabbard as well as the four-leaf petals on the spine are very characteristic. In general the Murut decorations seem to be more "cubic" and less organic than the decorations of the Dayak and when motives indeed are of natural form, they display a vegetative type, presumably due to the Islamic influence on the Murut expression? What I find really strange about this one, is that the textile placed under the point of belt attachment, seem to be of the exact same type as the one on mine, I posted some time ago. -Burgundy with little white flowers, right? Maybe our original owners shopped in the same place? I am familiar with Dayak's opinion that the hilts started out as being complex and then became simpler due to "more easy to make". As far as we are talking evolution of pre-20th cent. SEA arms in general, I don't agree with him though, but align my thoughts more along those of fx. Kaudern. I'll refrain from OT'ing Charles' thread and save my thoughts on the subject for a separate thread. Maurice, your paka is fabulous too - I've drooled over it many many times. I think it's probably my most favorite of all the pakayun hilts I've seen: The swooping leaves between the pegs as well as the well-carved little knobs are fantastic. Not to mention that the well-worn patina of the wood is so chocolate'y-delicious, you could eat it! Thanks so much for sharing and cheers all, - Thor Attached Images

6th March 2013, 08:04 PM	#2
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Nice find Charles! Why don't you bring it to Baltimore so we can discuss it together? Unlike for Dayak and Malay motifs it's hard to find anything on Murut talismanic beliefs on swords. Michael

6th March 2013, 08:16 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Thanks Michael....can do!

6th March 2013, 09:31 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,791	Can't be from help but have to say that it's a beauty!

6th March 2013, 11:07 PM	#5
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Wow ! Very nice example, Grooved blade, I think this is the most elaborate blade I have seen on a pakayun. laminated, grooved, decoration on the sides and spine. stunning piece. congrats.

7th March 2013, 12:27 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Na, recently made piece of junk. Throw it in the dumpster (then I'll go dumpster diving ).

7th March 2013, 01:00 PM	#7
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,352	Congratulations with this nice pakayun Charles..... It's surely a beauty! Maurice

7th March 2013, 08:52 PM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	MOST EVERYTHING SEEMS TO BE IN TRADITIONAL MURUT FORM SCABBARD DECORATIONS ECT. THE BLADE IS IN THE PROPER SHAPE BUT THE FANCY ENGRAVING ON THE BLADE IS NEW TO ME. I DO SEEM TO REMEMBER SEEING FULLERS ON A BLADE AND PERHAPS SOME MARKS ON A BLADE SPINE. THE BANDS ON THE SCABBARD ARE USUALLY MADE FROM SOMETHING LIKE A TIN CAN NOT COPPER. UNFORTUNATELY I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT MURUT BELIEFS OR TAILSMANIC MARKINGS BUT AM SURE ALL DESIGNS HAD SOME TRIBAL MEANING WHICH MAY STILL BE KNOWN OR NOT.? I SUSPECT THIS SWORD WAS CUSTOM MADE EITHER BY COMMISION OF THE OWNER OR PERHAPS FOR A GIFT OR PRESENTATION. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN QUITE IMPRESSIVE WHEN NEW (NOT THAT IT ISN'T NOW ) IMAGINE IT WITH THE BRASS SHINING LIKE GOLD AND THE COPPER BANDS BLAZING RED AGAINST THE BLACK WOOD WITH THE STARK AND COMPLETE LIME INFILL AND A FRESH BELT OR CORD. SOME GUYS HAVE ALL THE LUCK AND GET DA GOOD STUFF

7th March 2013, 10:41 PM	#9
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	I see many similarities with this one...including fullering, the scabbard style, etc. http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2992

8th March 2013, 03:20 PM	#11
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	He CharlesS http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2992 in mine. Sure there are similarities, but the blade (laminated but with a lesser visible pattern) haven't decorations on the spine and on the sides, and the scabbard is less gorgeous. Your one seems to me, as wrote VANDOO, a presentation sword, however really a beauty. Paolo

8th March 2013, 07:53 PM	#12
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	NOW I HAVE SEEN TWO WITH DECORATIVE ENGRAVING AT THE FORTE OF THE BLADE. THIS WOULD MAKE ME THINK SOMEONE WAS MAKEING THESE IN THE SAME AREA AND TIME RANGE. I SUSPECT THEY ARE FEW IN NUMBERS CONSIDERING THE MAJORITY I HAVE SEEN DID NOT HAVE THIS. PERHAPS THIS WAS BECAUSE OF COST OR THEY WERE LIMITED AT THE SOURCE AS PRESENTATION PIECES ONLY TO BE GIVEN ON SPECIAL OCCASIONS TO PEOPLE OF HIGH STATUS. AS TO WHO HAD THEM MADE MURUT OR OUTSIDERS IS HARD TO SAY BUT I PERSONALLY THINK THESE TWO DESIGNS SHOW OUTSIDE INFLUENCE BEYOND BORNEO. JUST A GUT FEELING. BUT THE SWORDS LOOK TO HAVE BEEN MADE IN BORNEO AND THE DESIGNS ON THE SPINE ARE TRADITIONAL ENOUGH. DECORATED BLADES ARE NOT TOO UNCOMMON IN BORNEO ON THE MANDAU OR JIMPUL SO WHY NOT ON THE PAKAYUN PERHAPS ONE WITH THE PIERCED BLADE WITH BRASS OR SILVER INSERTS MAY SHOW UP. AS TOO THE IRON STRAPS ON SCABBARDS THE THICKNESS OF THE STRAPS WAS ABOUT THE SAME AS AN OLD CAN NOT NECESSARLY MADE OF ONE. VVV A PICTURE OF THE POMMEL ON YOUR EXAMPLE WOULD BE NICE I HAVE ONLY SEEN ONE OR TWO OF THAT SIMULAR FORM.

8th March 2013, 08:50 PM	#14
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	so cool how that pakayun turned out, charles! pretty hefty piece, that pakayun is...

9th March 2013, 12:13 PM	#15
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Barry, I see no reason why a Murut wouldn't have done those blade decorations? It seems that they show up on older and more elaborate Murut swords. I don't want to kidnap Charles' thread but the hilt of mine has been discussed at an earlier thread (when it belonged to Ben/Dajak). In the first posts are more examples of pakayun with fullers. Michael