Women wielding swords/daggers/bows in the past

[Aleksey G.]

Hello,
After telling my friends wife about my "sword collecting" hobby,
and showing her some of my collection, she curiosly asked me a very interesting question (or technically several questions) that after thinking about it I realized I dont know much about.

The questions were (paraphrasing):

What kinda weapons(edged) could women be allowed and would wield in the past and in what cultures?
were there really women assasins and in which cultures what what did they use?

I know the questions are broad but I thought if everybody could contribute
something it might make for an interesting discussion.

Please feel free to include any countries and cultures:
China, Japan, Middle-East, Inonesia, India, Europe and others...
Any edged weapons (in hand and throwing) and maybe archery?,


Any small bits of information are welcome.

Happy New Year,
Aleksey.

[fearn]

I'll take one of the easier ones first: Japan.

Yes, there were a few women warriors (onna bugeisha, or women trained in the use of weapons Tomoe Gozen was one), and samurai wives in general were expected to defend their households. That's one reason why in modern Japan and America, naginata-do is practiced more by girls and women than by men. Women also carried knives to commit suicide with. Supposedly there were female ninja, kunoichi, but I'm not sure how much about them is real, how much is fake, and whether they were assassins, spies, or some combination.

I'll also throw in an interesting weapon from Korea: the jang do (link to one at Pitt Rivers). These were small (~10 cm) knives carried by women (and men to a lesser extent) during the Choseon period. Jang do were so highly ornamented that they were also jewelry, worn a variety of ways. Symbolically, they were also given to young women before their weddings, to protect against rape, and also as a symbol that they were now independent from their parents and full adults.

My 0.002 cents,

F

[katana]

Hi Aleksey
welcome to the forum Interesting question, heres a link to a previous thread which may interest you.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=amazons

Regards David

[lemmythesmith]

Hi Aleksey, women in Indonesia often carried a small keris known as a patrem for self defence.

[A. G. Maisey]

The patrem was probably not a defensive weapon, but rather a ceremonial one, which some women of rank were entitled to wear under certain circumstances.

In old Malaya, and some other localities in S.E. Asia, a very small variety of the lawi ayam or korambit was the usual women's weapon. Sometimes these could be carried in a fold of the clothing, and sometimes secreted in the konde (the bun of hair at the back of the neck).

In Central Jawa noble women would also sometimes carry a small, expensively ornamented dagger. Some years ago there used to be a display of these small daggers in the Mangkunegaraan musium in Solo. They were about 8 inches long, in the scabbard, handle of either agate or embossed metal, and scabbard of metal, in most cases this was gold or suasa---probably the reason they seem to have disappeared from display.

Thirty years ago in Malang in East Jawa I knew a woman who carried a cock's spur fitted into a small bambu grip. Indonesian fighting cock's spurs are effectively narrow, double edged daggers about three inches long.

In Jawa the pins that women used to hold their hair in place, the tusuk konde, also served as weapons, but this use was not unique to women in Jawa, my own grandmother once put a man who attacked her, into hospital, with a hat pin.

The pics are of a lawi ayam that was used in an attack on a man around 1920, probably in Singapore; it is 6" overall in the scabbard, and 5.5" out of the scabbard.

[Bill M]

Hi Aleks,

Well, you have seen what Anne has in her kitchen gallery! From Germany, to Papua New Guinea, with an emphasis in Africa, Philippines and Java. And an Arab Camel rifle....

Glad to see you posting here!!!

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi all,

A few more to think about.

Joan of Arc,
Boudicca, who just featured in a history channel documentary today in Australia.
Women were also gladiators in Rome.

Here is a great link with lots of other links to women warriors.

http://ancienthistory.about.com/libr.../aa032703a.htm

Gav

[migueldiaz]

Philippine Dagger 3 as well as Dagger 2 I believe, in Krieger's Plate No. 13 (below), are both women's blades:

"Plate 13. Hand weapons for cutting, piercing, and stabbing: Knives and daggers ... 2. Dagger "bala-rao"; hastate shape double-edged blade; handle provided with a peculiar finger-fitting grip consisting of extended tang and two horns; silver ferrule at center. Chief defense weapon of the Mandayan, southeastern Mindanao. 3. Woman's knife. Blade curved, designed for striking a slanting blow. Bagobo, southeastern Mindanao ..."

[Aleksey G.]

Thank you guys for the info and the links.
Katana and Bill thank you for the the welcome

If anybody else find this topic, feel free to add.
Will appreciate any info and pictures.

[colin henshaw]

Hi

Apart from the famous Amazons of Dahomey, I have heard of one other instance of women historically carrying edged weapons. In Chris Peers' book "Armies of the 19th century : East Africa", he mentions a report by H.M. Stanley regarding the Buganda King Mtesa having a contingent of female warriors in the mid 1870s. About half were armed with guns and the rest with spears. He also mentions some women fighters carrying mysterious "striped staffs"...

[Freddy]

Here are the Amazons of Dahomey. Fierce looking creatures !

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Aleksey G.

Thank you guys for the info and the links.
Katana and Bill thank you for the the welcome

If anybody else find this topic, feel free to add.
Will appreciate any info and pictures.

Aleks and all,

I find it convenient to track posts I make, or respond to, by changing the 'notifications' in my personal profile to automatically subscribe me to the posts. This give me future notifications any time anyone replies.

It is a nice and powerful feature of this forum's software.

[Luc LEFEBVRE]

Somes pics of african (Congo) women or young girls with knives, in ceremonial use.
Luc

[josh stout]

Women and weapons in Chinese culture is a complex topic. There seem to be two very strong apposing modes. On the one hand, you have the traditional woman with bound feet and a subservient role who could never fight. On the other hand you have a very long tradition of female fighters in literature and reality. They seem to have always been a small minority who fought, but skilled women were considered the equal of men. The jian was considered a woman's weapon even though it was mostly men who used them. I think it was with jian that women were particularly the equals of men due to the emphasis of quickness over strength with the sword. The Manchu did not use women in the regular army, but did consider that they should learn archery and horsemanship just like the men. The Manchu tried several times to forbid foot binding specifically because it made women week and unfit to ride.

The monasteries of China have a long martial tradition, and often had associated nunneries with fighting nuns and their own styles. In my system of kungfu there are many women's systems, among them one dedicated to the only female of the eight immortals. It uses hairpins, needles/darts, and a short sword strapped to the back. Unfortunately it is only taught as an empty hand form today.
Josh

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Luc LEFEBVRE

Somes pics of african (Congo) women or young girls with knives, in ceremonial use.

Thanks for the interesting pics, Luc

Some of the women have large breasts as is obvious. Though the geographic setting is different, just the same the fact appears to disprove the urban legend that the right breast of Amazons are cut off for practical purposes.

Like for instance we read about the myth[?] in the Wikipedia article on Amazons:

"This word [Amazon] is probably derived from an Iranian ethnonym *ha-mazan-, 'warriors'.[citation needed] A connected word is probably Hesychius of Alexandria's gloss ἁμαζακάραν· πολεμεῖν. Πέρσαι (hamazakaran: "to make war" (Persian), containing the Indo-Iranian root kar- 'make' also in kar-ma).[citation needed] Among Classical Greeks, amazon was given a naive etymology as from a- (privative) + mazos, 'without breast', connected with an etiological tradition that Amazons had their right breast cut off or burnt out, so they would be able to use a bow more freely and throw spears without the physical limitation and obstruction;[1] there is no indication of such a practice in works of art, in which the Amazons are always represented with both breasts, although the right is frequently covered."

xxx

"Hippocrates describes them as: 'They have no right breasts...for while they are yet babies their mothers make red-hot a bronze instrument constructed for this very purpose and apply it to the right breast and cauterize it, so that its growth is arrested, and all its strength and bulk are diverted to the right shoulder and right arm.' (See breast ironing, a current practice in which breast growth is deliberately stunted.)"

Perhaps those who know archery can also give us their insights.

[fearn]

I'm not much of an archer, but I would note that in kyudo, male archers sometimes take off their left sleeves and bare their left breast. I assume this is so that the cloth doesn't tangle in the long sleeve, since they are bracing their bows with the left hand and drawing with the right.

Note that I have yet to see a picture of a woman doing this, but I'd guess that, if a woman wasn't too well endowed, she could do the same thing to clear her arm to draw the bow. This would result in having one bare breast and one covered, leading to Hippocrates' description. Personally, I'd bet that most women are too intelligent to do this, but who knows. Maybe the amazons did this during archery competitions or something, to mess with the aim of their male competitors.

F

[migueldiaz]

Thanks for the comments, Fearn.

I was watching the other day the kyudo episode of the 'Samurai Spirit' [documentary] on NHK. And yes, having just learned what kyudo is, they do bare one part of the chest to facilitate the arrow shooting.

Which indeed makes one wonder whether perhaps the [Amazons] story is true.

In the 180 BC relief below, one of the Amazons is definitely showing one bare breast. And it seems to have been mastectomized (or was the relief just abraded over time?).

[Jeff D]

Well the question was wielding weapons. It may not always have been for war or violence. Other reasons were ceremony, art, dancing or the erotic. Here is a post card from Algeria.

Jeff

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Well the question was wielding weapons. It may not always have been for war or violence. Other reasons were ceremony, art, dancing or the erotic. Here is a post card from Algeria.

That's an interesting photo, Jeff.

I wonder what the message of the symbolisms are -- we have a young lady who seems to be lactating mother, and who is either pregnant again or had just delivered one, and then she's holding that ceremonial sword.

Moving to another location, here's an account describing an Igorot "amazon priestess":

"On the 25th [June 1747], Don Cuarto began the attack, but was soon put out of action himself by two rocks which struck him in the head. Apparently directing the defense forces was a sort of amazon priestess in their midst, naked to the waist, who kept inciting the Ipituys to fever pitch with her shouts and taunting the enemy with her invective and challenging them to shoot her, and although she was a frequent target, no ball found its mark -- a circumstance analyzed in the friar report of the battle as a sure sign of direct covenant with the Devil. The Igorots fought with such fury and war cries they literally foamed at the mouth, causing their enemies to suspect they had chewed some narcotic root to provide a suicidal intoxication."

The account was taken from WH Scott's The Discovery of the Igorots: Spanish Contacts with the Pagans of Northern Luzon (1974).

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

That's an interesting photo, Jeff.

I wonder what the message of the symbolisms are -- we have a young lady who seems to be lactating mother, and who is either pregnant again or had just delivered one, and then she's holding that ceremonial sword.

Yikes! miqueldiaz,

I think it was meant to symbolize what it says, 'The saber dance' . I think her physic is only what is/was thought to be erotic. This is one more answer for the original question asked; "What kinda weapons(edged) could women be allowed and would wield in the past and in what cultures?"

All the best.
Jeff

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

I think it was meant to symbolize what it says, 'The saber dance' . I think her physic is only what is/was thought to be erotic. This is one more answer for the original question asked; "What kinda weapons(edged) could women be allowed and would wield in the past and in what cultures?"

Thanks for the comment Jeff

Before I posted that earlier comment of mine, I was reading this earlier post, which said:

"In some tribes of Africa, smiths are outcasts that live outside the village. They are uncircumcised, therefore they posses both the masculine and the feminine, symbolically having the entirety which confers them, as in the Congo culture, the necessary protection to work iron, a product of Mother Earth's womb extraction."

And then I saw the pic you posted. So for a moment, it crossed my mind that perhaps the photographer was constructing a metaphor. Something like this and please hold on tight! --

Mother Earth's womb and breast can yield both nourishment and destruction (or raw materials therefor ... e.g., metal ore which can be made into a scalpel or a sword, etc.). Now the lactating and/or pregnant girl in the photo symbolizes the thought, and the ceremonial sword sort of provides the link to the parallelism.

Then again I may be reading too much between the lines. Or perhaps it's the effect of the new herbal tea somebody gave me last Christmas?

Ok, I think too it's both!

[Jeff D]

Hi migueldiaz,

Thats the beauty of interpretation one is just as valid as another. Now were can I get some of that tea . Jeff

[Jeff D]

Here is another. Same idea in China.

Jeff

[celtan]

same idea today, in the good ol'US of A

[celtan]

Alternatively, she may 1. suffer from intestinal worms which have distended her peritoneum and bowels, 2. is fat, which was considered attractive in North Africa, and/or 3. the saber represents the surgical blade used to make partum episiotomies...

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

That's an interesting photo, Jeff.

I wonder what the message of the symbolisms are -- we have a young lady who seems to be lactating mother, and who is either pregnant again or had just delivered one, and then she's holding that ceremonial sword.

Moving to another location, here's an account describing an Igorot "amazon priestess":

"On the 25th [June 1747], Don Cuarto began the attack, but was soon put out of action himself by two rocks which struck him in the head. Apparently directing the defense forces was a sort of amazon priestess in their midst, naked to the waist, who kept inciting the Ipituys to fever pitch with her shouts and taunting the enemy with her invective and challenging them to shoot her, and although she was a frequent target, no ball found its mark -- a circumstance analyzed in the friar report of the battle as a sure sign of direct covenant with the Devil. The Igorots fought with such fury and war cries they literally foamed at the mouth, causing their enemies to suspect they had chewed some narcotic root to provide a suicidal intoxication."

The account was taken from WH Scott's The Discovery of the Igorots: Spanish Contacts with the Pagans of Northern Luzon (1974).

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Thats the beauty of interpretation one is just as valid as another. Now were can I get some of that tea

Hi Jeff,

The tea's packaging says the herbs used contain traces of lysergic acid diethylamide. I wonder what sort of chemical is that?! Ok, just kidding!

Best regards ...

[VANDOO]

TRADITIONAL WEAPONS OF WOMEN IN AMERICA AND A FRENCH VERSION THEY COME IN DIFFERENT SIZES ACCORDING TO THE PREFRENCE OF THE WARRIOR. WHILE THESE CAN BE THROWN ACURATELY THEY ARE USUALLY USED TO BONK THE HUSBAND ON THE HEAD.

[celtan]

And you forget the classical "flying saucers", soup saucers, that's it...

: )

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

TRADITIONAL WEAPONS OF WOMEN IN AMERICA AND A FRENCH VERSION THEY COME IN DIFFERENT SIZES ACCORDING TO THE PREFRENCE OF THE WARRIOR. WHILE THESE CAN BE THROWN ACURATELY THEY ARE USUALLY USED TO BONK THE HUSBAND ON THE HEAD.

Interesting Vandoo!

In support of that, recent archeological finds reveal that things have not changed much, from the dawn of civilization.

We find that from the excerpted interpretations below, culled from various scientific journals

[migueldiaz]

Sometimes, the woman's greatest "weapon" is intangible and subtle ...