British 1821/96(?) heavy cavalry officers sword

drac2k · 2nd May 2015, 11:14 PM

I just picked up what I believe to be a Br. 1821/96 heavy cavalry sword ; it looks to have an Edwardian Crown on it and it is made by Hamburger, Rogers and Co.. There is a 4 digit number on the spine; is this a model number or and issue number such as on Wilkinson swords which can be traced ? Are there any records on Hamburger , Rogers and Co. swords still around ?

Jim McDougall · 3rd May 2015, 03:30 AM

As far as I know, Wilkinson was the only maker recording serial numbers and issues (officers swords only of course). They started in around 1856 if not mistaken, Robert Wilkinson-Latham often writes online and would likely know more.
These 1821 swords for heavy cavalry were mostly produced starting around 1829, as were the solid steel bowl versions for troopers. I do not recall details on how the 1896 versions for 'all' cavalry officers differed (check "Swords of the British Army", Brian Robson, 1975, and revised edition , do not recall date).

I had one of the Hamburger, Rogers & Co. swords with pierced bowl for heavy cavalry officers....it seems they were outfitters rather than makers.
There might be information in the comprehensive listings in "Swords for Sea Service" (Annis & May) or in Southwicks work on London swordmakers.

The numbers to me seem like lot or order numbers....I recall a Reeves M1821 light cavalry troopers sword with the numbers 111 next to 'REEVES', so could not have been an 'issue' number.

drac2k · 3rd May 2015, 02:51 PM

Thanks for the input; this sword is a bit of a mystery to me.I can not really make out the stylized royal cypher or the crown and the sword seems transitional.I'll post pictures after negotiating with my photographer (my wife), and hope for help from the forum.

drac2k · 3rd May 2015, 06:12 PM

I hope these pictures will help.

Jim McDougall · 7th May 2015, 08:37 PM

This is distinctly an Edwardian era (1901-1910) cavalry sabre as indicated by the Royal cypher. These are discussed in Robson (1975, pp.75-77) and of the basic pattern used 1822-1912. There were however some subtle changes in the hilt.
What is notable in this example is that the crosshatched backstrap of the hilt extends full length. In the heavy cavalry undress pattern of 1887, the hatching breaks mid point with the top part smooth. The pommel in all is a crosshatched dome (the 1887 example has a capstan, this does not).

On p.75, Robson notes that in the Army order of June 1,1896, there was not actually a new sword (of this type) introduced for ALL cavalry officers (the distinction between heavy and light cavalry remained by regiment in degree but not as far as swords from 1853 onward).
Apparently the order simply introduced a NEW pattern for LIGHT cavalry officers....and the variations in this example lead me to believe this is one of these.

Hamburger, Rogers & Co. were quite high end outfitters who had been appointed officially to the Crown in about 1850s and while carrying swords they also provided high end dress uniforms and regalia. While Hamburger, the original owner died c.1850s, his partner Rogers maintained the highly established name well into the 20th century.

This is a beautiful, elegant cavalry sword of the colorful pageantry of the fin de siècle period, and may well have been to one of the Household troops.
I believe it would be accurately classified as a Light Cavalry Officers sword 1901-10. The brass plug proof device (as begun in general use by Wilkinson in 1850s) with Star of Solomon surround typically had an initial or symbol in the center denoting which outfitter may have made the blade, however regardless of the chart in Annis & May, I have often found these unreliable.

drac2k · 8th May 2015, 01:03 PM

Thank you for your extensive and informative answer.The sword must have been for a very tall fellow as the blade measures approx. 36 1/2" x 1 1/8" at the base.Would the 4 digit number on the spine be a batch number, an issue number, a model number, etc.,?

Jim McDougall · 8th May 2015, 04:34 PM

My pleasure. It's always interesting to research these weapons to place them as firmly as possible in more defined context. In this way we can better appreciate the history around them. This was an extremely colorful period and exciting to imagine the pageantry and tradition in which this beautiful sword must have been surrounded.

As officers purchased their own kit, such numbers were not 'issuance' numbers but could well have been 'style' or 'pattern' numbers used by the purveyors. It seems Wilkinson had such numbers assigned to sword types, but of course they were known for the outstanding record keeping in swords they supplied.
The best source for further answers would be Mr. Wilkinson-Latham.
Thank you again for sharing this sword.

NeilUK · 8th May 2015, 06:09 PM

Comparing this sword to that on pp. 166-8 of Dellar's new book 'The British Cavalry Sword 1788-1912' it looks very like the 1896-1912 Universal pattern cavalry officer's sword. The illustration used, of a sword of the 3rd Dragoon Guards, has a blade 35" long by 1and1/8" wide, double-edged for the last 8and1/2".
Hope this helps.
Neil

drac2k · 8th May 2015, 11:18 PM

Once again thank you both for your valuable input.The false edge is about 10.5".
I just noticed that on the spine there is a very prevalent , well done fletched arrow, about 2 3/4" long; before the fletch there is a C, in the middle of the arrow there is a star, and after the point there is a P .Does this have any bearing on the sword?

Will M · 27th May 2015, 03:35 AM

Centre of percussion mark. It shows the point where the sword gives the most cutting power by striking your target with that point of the blade. Usually about 2/3 to 3/4 the length of the blade.

drac2k · 27th May 2015, 10:50 PM

Thanks, makes sense. I never would have guessed.

Will M · 31st May 2015, 03:20 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4zwyVw4NdA

good utube regarding c of p by Matt Easton.

2nd May 2015, 11:14 PM	#1
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	British 1821/96(?) heavy cavalry officers sword I just picked up what I believe to be a Br. 1821/96 heavy cavalry sword ; it looks to have an Edwardian Crown on it and it is made by Hamburger, Rogers and Co.. There is a 4 digit number on the spine; is this a model number or and issue number such as on Wilkinson swords which can be traced ? Are there any records on Hamburger , Rogers and Co. swords still around ?

3rd May 2015, 06:12 PM	#4
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	I hope these pictures will help. Attached Images

3rd May 2015, 03:30 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	As far as I know, Wilkinson was the only maker recording serial numbers and issues (officers swords only of course). They started in around 1856 if not mistaken, Robert Wilkinson-Latham often writes online and would likely know more. These 1821 swords for heavy cavalry were mostly produced starting around 1829, as were the solid steel bowl versions for troopers. I do not recall details on how the 1896 versions for 'all' cavalry officers differed (check "Swords of the British Army", Brian Robson, 1975, and revised edition , do not recall date). I had one of the Hamburger, Rogers & Co. swords with pierced bowl for heavy cavalry officers....it seems they were outfitters rather than makers. There might be information in the comprehensive listings in "Swords for Sea Service" (Annis & May) or in Southwicks work on London swordmakers. The numbers to me seem like lot or order numbers....I recall a Reeves M1821 light cavalry troopers sword with the numbers 111 next to 'REEVES', so could not have been an 'issue' number.

3rd May 2015, 02:51 PM	#3
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Thanks for the input; this sword is a bit of a mystery to me.I can not really make out the stylized royal cypher or the crown and the sword seems transitional.I'll post pictures after negotiating with my photographer (my wife), and hope for help from the forum.

7th May 2015, 08:37 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	This is distinctly an Edwardian era (1901-1910) cavalry sabre as indicated by the Royal cypher. These are discussed in Robson (1975, pp.75-77) and of the basic pattern used 1822-1912. There were however some subtle changes in the hilt. What is notable in this example is that the crosshatched backstrap of the hilt extends full length. In the heavy cavalry undress pattern of 1887, the hatching breaks mid point with the top part smooth. The pommel in all is a crosshatched dome (the 1887 example has a capstan, this does not). On p.75, Robson notes that in the Army order of June 1,1896, there was not actually a new sword (of this type) introduced for ALL cavalry officers (the distinction between heavy and light cavalry remained by regiment in degree but not as far as swords from 1853 onward). Apparently the order simply introduced a NEW pattern for LIGHT cavalry officers....and the variations in this example lead me to believe this is one of these. Hamburger, Rogers & Co. were quite high end outfitters who had been appointed officially to the Crown in about 1850s and while carrying swords they also provided high end dress uniforms and regalia. While Hamburger, the original owner died c.1850s, his partner Rogers maintained the highly established name well into the 20th century. This is a beautiful, elegant cavalry sword of the colorful pageantry of the fin de siècle period, and may well have been to one of the Household troops. I believe it would be accurately classified as a Light Cavalry Officers sword 1901-10. The brass plug proof device (as begun in general use by Wilkinson in 1850s) with Star of Solomon surround typically had an initial or symbol in the center denoting which outfitter may have made the blade, however regardless of the chart in Annis & May, I have often found these unreliable.

8th May 2015, 01:03 PM	#6
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Thank you for your extensive and informative answer.The sword must have been for a very tall fellow as the blade measures approx. 36 1/2" x 1 1/8" at the base.Would the 4 digit number on the spine be a batch number, an issue number, a model number, etc.,?

8th May 2015, 04:34 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	My pleasure. It's always interesting to research these weapons to place them as firmly as possible in more defined context. In this way we can better appreciate the history around them. This was an extremely colorful period and exciting to imagine the pageantry and tradition in which this beautiful sword must have been surrounded. As officers purchased their own kit, such numbers were not 'issuance' numbers but could well have been 'style' or 'pattern' numbers used by the purveyors. It seems Wilkinson had such numbers assigned to sword types, but of course they were known for the outstanding record keeping in swords they supplied. The best source for further answers would be Mr. Wilkinson-Latham. Thank you again for sharing this sword.

8th May 2015, 06:09 PM	#8
NeilUK Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Scotland Posts: 125	Comparing this sword to that on pp. 166-8 of Dellar's new book 'The British Cavalry Sword 1788-1912' it looks very like the 1896-1912 Universal pattern cavalry officer's sword. The illustration used, of a sword of the 3rd Dragoon Guards, has a blade 35" long by 1and1/8" wide, double-edged for the last 8and1/2". Hope this helps. Neil

8th May 2015, 11:18 PM	#9
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Once again thank you both for your valuable input.The false edge is about 10.5". I just noticed that on the spine there is a very prevalent , well done fletched arrow, about 2 3/4" long; before the fletch there is a C, in the middle of the arrow there is a star, and after the point there is a P .Does this have any bearing on the sword?

27th May 2015, 03:35 AM	#10
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	Centre of percussion mark. It shows the point where the sword gives the most cutting power by striking your target with that point of the blade. Usually about 2/3 to 3/4 the length of the blade.

27th May 2015, 10:50 PM	#11
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Thanks, makes sense. I never would have guessed.

31st May 2015, 03:20 PM	#12
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4zwyVw4NdA good utube regarding c of p by Matt Easton.