Arabic....North African curved dagger...comments / help

katana · 8th June 2006, 05:58 PM

Just bought this and haven't been able to identify its origins. The handle has a sort of 'Flissa' look, and the engravings look similar to some Berber blades.
Apparently it was a WW1 'trophy', it is described as being 46cms long overall and the blade 28cms long. The carved wooden sheath has several brass rings.
Can anyone put me out of my misery....... I keep thinking of the tales of Lawrence of Arabia......overactive imagination ..AGAIN

Rick · 8th June 2006, 06:19 PM

Aren't these pretty much Moroccan in origin ?
I had one of these as a child ; WWII item most likely from the souk ; it was definitely made for TWTFP.
I can't tell from the pictures if this one is a serious weapon or souvenir .

katana · 8th June 2006, 06:35 PM

Hi Rick,
I have not received it yet, It is guaranteed not to be tourist 'junk', the seller buys and sells militaria so I would assume that he knows what he's talking about

The dagger definately seems to have age and patina, (the pictures I received were very high resolution )

Souk ???? and TWTFP ??? Sorry for my lack of Knowledge Rick could you explain ?

Emanuel · 8th June 2006, 07:01 PM

Hello katana,

I'm still unsure whether my variant is made for Those Who Travel For Pleasure or not. It has a thin 2mm blade, crude engravings and the scabbard and hilt only have brass inlay, not carving like yours. I had the impression that these are indeed Moroccan and that they have a ceremonial function -hence the name Wedding Nimcha. To me they look like a non-weapon derivative of the shula.

Emanuel

ariel · 8th June 2006, 07:56 PM

I agree with Rick: this is a North African bazaar version of Nimcha (or Zeus only knows what they call it). It is aimed at the tourist market, although I've been told that similar creations were used at wedding ceremonies, as part of the costume.
As far as I know, they have no utilitarian or military purpose and it is reflected in the quality of their blades.

ErnestoJuan · 8th June 2006, 09:39 PM

According to Tirri (page 44) , these daggers originate from Algiers.

ErnestoJuan · 8th June 2006, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hello katana,

I'm still unsure whether my variant is made for Those Who Travel For Pleasure or not. It has a thin 2mm blade, crude engravings and the scabbard and hilt only have brass inlay, not carving like yours. I had the impression that these are indeed Moroccan and that they have a ceremonial function -hence the name Wedding Nimcha. To me they look like a non-weapon derivative of the shula.

Emanuel

I think I know what you mean. However, the 20th century variant of the shula really does not look like these so called " ceremonial nimcha's " .

Like I said in my previous post; according to Tirri these ceremonial items come from Algiers. On the other hand, many describe these items as " ceremonial nimchas' " thus originating from Morocco.

just my 2 euro cents.

In the very near future I woll post pictures of my collection of koummya's, shula's and related items.

katana · 8th June 2006, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErnestoJuan

According to Tirri (page 44) , these daggers originate from Algiers.

So is there the possibility that this is not a tourist ( or TWTFP, thanks Manolo for the clue in your post

) dagger. ?
ErnestoJuan, could you please post any other information you may have, thankyou

ErnestoJuan · 8th June 2006, 10:41 PM

Well, the grand master of all oriental arms describes a similar item as:

" A very decorative presentation “NIMCHA” knife / dagger from Algier. It has a 16 inches single edge blade of deep curvature. The blade is engraved in a typical design, inlaid with brass and filed on the spine. The hilt and the scabbard are made of wood and entirely carved in a typica; Algerian design. Total length 25 ½ inches. Very good condition. It is not a fighting weapon but a very decorative example and of good workmanship. It is a nice addition to a collection of Oriental Weapon / art, at a very attractive price."

here is the url for piccies:

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=1506

katana · 8th June 2006, 11:07 PM

Other than the longer blade, they are indeed very similar, thankyou for the link

ErnestoJuan · 8th June 2006, 11:27 PM

My pleasure.

VANDOO · 9th June 2006, 02:24 AM

THE OLDER EXAMPLES OF THESE ARE QUITE NICE AND THE INLAYING OF METAL INTO THE HANDLE AND SCABBARD AS WELL AS THE INLAYED TWISTED WIRE IN THE BLADES IS UNIQUE. PERHAPS THEY DID HAVE A FUNCTION OTHER THAN CEREMONY IN THE PAST AS I HAVE SEEN THEM IN PICTURES OF VERY OLD COLLECTIONS. THE NEWER ONES WITH THE PLASTIC IMITATION CORAL INLAY ARE SHOWY BUT THE WORKMANSHIP IS INFERIOR TO THE OLDER ONES.

ariel · 9th June 2006, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErnestoJuan

Well, the grand master of all oriental arms describes a similar item as:

" A very decorative presentation “NIMCHA” knife / dagger from Algier. It has a 16 inches single edge blade of deep curvature. The blade is engraved in a typical design, inlaid with brass and filed on the spine. The hilt and the scabbard are made of wood and entirely carved in a typica; Algerian design. Total length 25 ½ inches. Very good condition. It is not a fighting weapon but a very decorative example and of good workmanship. It is a nice addition to a collection of Oriental Weapon / art, at a very attractive price."

here is the url for piccies:

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=1506

This one has a blade that is very much "flyssa"-like. Algiers comes to mind right away.

katana · 9th June 2006, 06:12 PM

I've been send further photos by the seller, I've tried to make them large enough so that the detail is easier to see, perhaps these could help to decide whether this is a tourist piece or something a little better

.
Opinions gentlemen please........ thanks

Emanuel · 9th June 2006, 10:01 PM

Katana,

On these newer pics the blade looks considerably thicker than my example, or is it just an impression due to the large pic size? If it is indeed thick and has a distal taper than my guess is it's a functional blade. On the last picture it almost looks like it has a false edge as well.

Ernesto, you are right that shulas are different, but other than shula and possibly the small flyssa I don't know of any maghrib weapon similar to these "nimcha" that could have influenced the appearance of its blade.
-attaching my shula for comparison-

galvano · 9th June 2006, 11:00 PM

There is the Moroccan nimcha.
It is a long sword.
galvano

Emanuel · 9th June 2006, 11:07 PM

Yes Galvano, but that is for the hilt, and I was talking about the blade

The ceremonial nimchas are called that just because of the characteristic hilt I think, but the blade type is wholly different and it's only similar to the shula and flyssa (as far as I know, which is little).
I am planning a trip to Algeria in about a year or so, and I will definitely pass through Morocco and have a look at the many weapons they have...
Emanuel

-oh yes! there is the koummiya, but then the blade is quite different, is used differently and it doesn't bear incised decorations-

Flavio · 9th June 2006, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by galvano

There is the Moroccan nimcha.
It is a long sword.
galvano

A very nice nimcha, Galvano

ErnestoJuan · 9th June 2006, 11:40 PM

Dear Manolo,

A very nice 19th century shula you have there. I have one that is quite similar. With regards to these so called " ceremonial nimcha's" , I think that the blade of the 20th century shula really come close, not the 19th century variant.

I agree with you that the origin of the "ceremonial nimchas" is tough to pinpoint. Like you, I do not believe that they are tourist items. Who knows, maybe your planned trip will shine a light on this issue. Oh, and bring me back some rhino hilted koummya's will you ?

Attached are pictures of a 20th century shula I have. Again, I still do not have the time to take proper pictures etc of my collection due to private matters.

However, within the very near future I intend to post lots of pics of my north african collection.

Well, here are the pictures:

Emanuel · 10th June 2006, 12:20 AM

Hello ErnestoJuan

So it was you who got that interesting Shula!!

Thanks for specifying an age for it and for my own example -19th century sounds good. All of the shula I saw in books and on the internet looked closely like mine, so I did not know about their age.
I will definitely bring back as many goodies as I can, but that is in the far future, and after all, you're much closer to the source than I am.

Thank you for the pictures and I await the rest of your collection.
All the best,
Emanuel

katana · 10th June 2006, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Katana,

On these newer pics the blade looks considerably thicker than my example, or is it just an impression due to the large pic size? If it is indeed thick and has a distal taper than my guess is it's a functional blade. On the last picture it almost looks like it has a false edge as well.-

Manolo, what an interesting Nimcha.
I have posted two more pic's of the blade, IMHO I think you are right there is a false edge. Scaling the blade thickness with the carved pattern of the scabbard I think the blade is thicker.

I think, taking measurements from the photos and scaling them up I believe the blade spine is approx. 4 mm and seems to have distal taper.

See what you think

Emanuel · 11th June 2006, 12:34 AM

Hello Katana,
I would think that a 4mm blade can be useful in a fight, but then again I know very little about it. Your nimcha is definitely not a toy like mine, but I wonder how it would be used. Does one stab or slash with it? And what effect do the incisions on the spine have on cutting? How does it feel in-hand? Is the large hilt helpful or a nuisance? Mine is ridiculously large and useless, but yours may be functional.
Let's say it is the old, genuine ceremonial/wedding nimcha like VANDOO says, and leave it at that, because I really have no idea if you can fight with it or not

I'll keep my eye out for any more info on these daggers, but I think yours is a pretty good example.
Emanuel

Michael Blalock · 11th June 2006, 03:25 AM

My daughter spent last summer living with a Berber family in a small village in the Atlas mountains of Morocco. She described a ceremony in the village where all the men wore daggers, played drums and danced. At no other time did she see any daggers worn. She told me their daggers were similar to the couple of Khoumiyas I own. Perhaps these ritual dances explain the preponderance of non-functional styles of knifes from Morocco. I would ask her more but she's in Ecuador this summer where I'll be visiting her in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately, I don't think there are any ethnographic weapons available there.

katana · 11th June 2006, 11:46 AM

Thankyou all for your input

, I have taken a risk and completed the transaction on this dagger. Once I receive it ( will probably take up to 2 weeks, as its coming from the US), I will be able to assess this dagger's potential ....or lack of it.
I am hopeful that the blade is indeed functional or of a quality similar to the Oriental Arms version posted by ErnestoJuan.

katana · 17th June 2006, 12:59 PM

Dagger arrived today, and I'm very pleased with it. The blade's spine is indeed 4mm and distally tapers to 1.5 mm. The blade is relatively sharp, noticeably more so on the apex of the curve. It suggests that it could be used with a 'slashing' type strike or with a stabbing action. The blade had some sort of green waxy material on it which was easily cleaned off to expose a very clean, shiny blade.
The handle is hand carved with thin inlays of metal which emphasize the carved pattern. Wear patina on the handle suggests use. The guard is not flimsy or springy and would definately give good protection.
The dagger handles well , in a stabbing or slashing action.
The brass work has alot of oxidation, very dark in some areas.

IMHO this is a fully functioning weapon, I can only assume that this is not a 'Wedding Nimcha'............

.......therefore.. it must be a 'Divorce Nimcha'......you could certainly cut all ties with this......

Any ideas or comments, please gentlemen

Tim Simmons · 17th June 2006, 06:25 PM

With a 4mm spine it sounds very functional. A great many of these are not very nice and people are put off, well done you for picking a good one. I think my flissa has very similar patterns on the scabbard.

katana · 17th June 2006, 06:32 PM

Thanks Tim, I am really pleased with it.

The carving is of good quality too.
It seems to have a nice balance between ornateness (if theres such a word) and functionality.

katana · 18th June 2006, 02:40 PM

Now I've a problem, it's not a bazaar knife or a 'wedding Nimcha'. Its functional and well made, it has age .......so what is it

It can't be unique, has anyone any ideas as to origin, now the functionality of this knife is confirmed....please

Rick · 18th June 2006, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Now I've a problem, it's not a bazaar knife or a 'wedding Nimcha'. Its functional and well made, it has age .......so what is it

It can't be unique, has anyone any ideas as to origin, now the functionality of this knife is confirmed....please

No disrespect intended ; but where and by what method did we rule out that this is not a well made example of either of the above qouted ? I'm sure that pieces like this came in many levels of quality .

All that I've read above are opinions .

It is after all possible to kill a man with a steak knife but that does make said item a functional weapon .

/Playing the Devil's advocate .

katana · 18th June 2006, 04:32 PM

I see your point, but the blade is still relatively sharp, with no evidence of recent sharpening, it is very sturdy and feels very functional. The history given to me was that this was indeed a weapon brought back from WW1. The curve of the blade is less acute than the wedding Nimcha posted, making it more effective as a slashing type blade. The area mid way along the blade is the sharpist... again pointing to its ability to 'slash'.
The carving on the handle is very good quality, and improves the 'grip' considerably without being too ornate. The guard in the photos look thin and weak. However this is not the case, I have tried to bend it

and found it to be very strong and would certainly protect the hand.

Why make a ceremonial knife with a functional blade.... surely ceremonial or ritual weapons are representations ......

8th June 2006, 05:58 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Arabic....North African curved dagger...comments / help Just bought this and haven't been able to identify its origins. The handle has a sort of 'Flissa' look, and the engravings look similar to some Berber blades. Apparently it was a WW1 'trophy', it is described as being 46cms long overall and the blade 28cms long. The carved wooden sheath has several brass rings. Can anyone put me out of my misery....... I keep thinking of the tales of Lawrence of Arabia......overactive imagination ..AGAIN Attached Images

8th June 2006, 07:01 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Got one too :) Hello katana, I'm still unsure whether my variant is made for Those Who Travel For Pleasure or not. It has a thin 2mm blade, crude engravings and the scabbard and hilt only have brass inlay, not carving like yours. I had the impression that these are indeed Moroccan and that they have a ceremonial function -hence the name Wedding Nimcha. To me they look like a non-weapon derivative of the shula. Emanuel Attached Images

9th June 2006, 06:12 PM	#14
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I've been send further photos by the seller, I've tried to make them large enough so that the detail is easier to see, perhaps these could help to decide whether this is a tourist piece or something a little better . Opinions gentlemen please........ thanks Attached Images Last edited by katana; 9th June 2006 at 06:27 PM.

9th June 2006, 10:01 PM	#15
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Katana, On these newer pics the blade looks considerably thicker than my example, or is it just an impression due to the large pic size? If it is indeed thick and has a distal taper than my guess is it's a functional blade. On the last picture it almost looks like it has a false edge as well. Ernesto, you are right that shulas are different, but other than shula and possibly the small flyssa I don't know of any maghrib weapon similar to these "nimcha" that could have influenced the appearance of its blade. -attaching my shula for comparison- Attached Images

9th June 2006, 11:00 PM	#16
galvano Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 178	hi all There is the Moroccan nimcha. It is a long sword. galvano Attached Images

8th June 2006, 06:19 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Aren't these pretty much Moroccan in origin ? I had one of these as a child ; WWII item most likely from the souk ; it was definitely made for TWTFP. I can't tell from the pictures if this one is a serious weapon or souvenir .

8th June 2006, 06:35 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Rick, I have not received it yet, It is guaranteed not to be tourist 'junk', the seller buys and sells militaria so I would assume that he knows what he's talking about The dagger definately seems to have age and patina, (the pictures I received were very high resolution ) Souk ???? and TWTFP ??? Sorry for my lack of Knowledge Rick could you explain ?

8th June 2006, 07:56 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I agree with Rick: this is a North African bazaar version of Nimcha (or Zeus only knows what they call it). It is aimed at the tourist market, although I've been told that similar creations were used at wedding ceremonies, as part of the costume. As far as I know, they have no utilitarian or military purpose and it is reflected in the quality of their blades.

8th June 2006, 09:39 PM	#6
ErnestoJuan Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Europa Posts: 60	According to Tirri (page 44) , these daggers originate from Algiers.

8th June 2006, 10:41 PM	#9
ErnestoJuan Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Europa Posts: 60	Well, the grand master of all oriental arms describes a similar item as: " A very decorative presentation “NIMCHA” knife / dagger from Algier. It has a 16 inches single edge blade of deep curvature. The blade is engraved in a typical design, inlaid with brass and filed on the spine. The hilt and the scabbard are made of wood and entirely carved in a typica; Algerian design. Total length 25 ½ inches. Very good condition. It is not a fighting weapon but a very decorative example and of good workmanship. It is a nice addition to a collection of Oriental Weapon / art, at a very attractive price." here is the url for piccies: http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=1506

8th June 2006, 11:07 PM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Other than the longer blade, they are indeed very similar, thankyou for the link

8th June 2006, 11:27 PM	#11
ErnestoJuan Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Europa Posts: 60	My pleasure.

9th June 2006, 02:24 AM	#12
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE OLDER EXAMPLES OF THESE ARE QUITE NICE AND THE INLAYING OF METAL INTO THE HANDLE AND SCABBARD AS WELL AS THE INLAYED TWISTED WIRE IN THE BLADES IS UNIQUE. PERHAPS THEY DID HAVE A FUNCTION OTHER THAN CEREMONY IN THE PAST AS I HAVE SEEN THEM IN PICTURES OF VERY OLD COLLECTIONS. THE NEWER ONES WITH THE PLASTIC IMITATION CORAL INLAY ARE SHOWY BUT THE WORKMANSHIP IS INFERIOR TO THE OLDER ONES.

9th June 2006, 11:07 PM	#17
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Always wanted one of those sabres...beautiful!! Yes Galvano, but that is for the hilt, and I was talking about the blade The ceremonial nimchas are called that just because of the characteristic hilt I think, but the blade type is wholly different and it's only similar to the shula and flyssa (as far as I know, which is little). I am planning a trip to Algeria in about a year or so, and I will definitely pass through Morocco and have a look at the many weapons they have... Emanuel -oh yes! there is the koummiya, but then the blade is quite different, is used differently and it doesn't bear incised decorations-

9th June 2006, 11:40 PM	#19
ErnestoJuan Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Europa Posts: 60	Dear Manolo, A very nice 19th century shula you have there. I have one that is quite similar. With regards to these so called " ceremonial nimcha's" , I think that the blade of the 20th century shula really come close, not the 19th century variant. I agree with you that the origin of the "ceremonial nimchas" is tough to pinpoint. Like you, I do not believe that they are tourist items. Who knows, maybe your planned trip will shine a light on this issue. Oh, and bring me back some rhino hilted koummya's will you ? Attached are pictures of a 20th century shula I have. Again, I still do not have the time to take proper pictures etc of my collection due to private matters. However, within the very near future I intend to post lots of pics of my north african collection. Well, here are the pictures: Attached Images

10th June 2006, 12:20 AM	#20
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello ErnestoJuan So it was you who got that interesting Shula!! Thanks for specifying an age for it and for my own example -19th century sounds good. All of the shula I saw in books and on the internet looked closely like mine, so I did not know about their age. I will definitely bring back as many goodies as I can, but that is in the far future, and after all, you're much closer to the source than I am. Thank you for the pictures and I await the rest of your collection. All the best, Emanuel

11th June 2006, 12:34 AM	#22
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Katana, I would think that a 4mm blade can be useful in a fight, but then again I know very little about it. Your nimcha is definitely not a toy like mine, but I wonder how it would be used. Does one stab or slash with it? And what effect do the incisions on the spine have on cutting? How does it feel in-hand? Is the large hilt helpful or a nuisance? Mine is ridiculously large and useless, but yours may be functional. Let's say it is the old, genuine ceremonial/wedding nimcha like VANDOO says, and leave it at that, because I really have no idea if you can fight with it or not I'll keep my eye out for any more info on these daggers, but I think yours is a pretty good example. Emanuel

11th June 2006, 03:25 AM	#23
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	My daughter spent last summer living with a Berber family in a small village in the Atlas mountains of Morocco. She described a ceremony in the village where all the men wore daggers, played drums and danced. At no other time did she see any daggers worn. She told me their daggers were similar to the couple of Khoumiyas I own. Perhaps these ritual dances explain the preponderance of non-functional styles of knifes from Morocco. I would ask her more but she's in Ecuador this summer where I'll be visiting her in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately, I don't think there are any ethnographic weapons available there.

11th June 2006, 11:46 AM	#24
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thankyou all for your input , I have taken a risk and completed the transaction on this dagger. Once I receive it ( will probably take up to 2 weeks, as its coming from the US), I will be able to assess this dagger's potential ....or lack of it. I am hopeful that the blade is indeed functional or of a quality similar to the Oriental Arms version posted by ErnestoJuan.

17th June 2006, 12:59 PM	#25
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Dagger arrived today, and I'm very pleased with it. The blade's spine is indeed 4mm and distally tapers to 1.5 mm. The blade is relatively sharp, noticeably more so on the apex of the curve. It suggests that it could be used with a 'slashing' type strike or with a stabbing action. The blade had some sort of green waxy material on it which was easily cleaned off to expose a very clean, shiny blade. The handle is hand carved with thin inlays of metal which emphasize the carved pattern. Wear patina on the handle suggests use. The guard is not flimsy or springy and would definately give good protection. The dagger handles well , in a stabbing or slashing action. The brass work has alot of oxidation, very dark in some areas. IMHO this is a fully functioning weapon, I can only assume that this is not a 'Wedding Nimcha'............ .......therefore.. it must be a 'Divorce Nimcha'......you could certainly cut all ties with this...... Any ideas or comments, please gentlemen

17th June 2006, 06:25 PM	#26
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	With a 4mm spine it sounds very functional. A great many of these are not very nice and people are put off, well done you for picking a good one. I think my flissa has very similar patterns on the scabbard.

17th June 2006, 06:32 PM	#27
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks Tim, I am really pleased with it. The carving is of good quality too. It seems to have a nice balance between ornateness (if theres such a word) and functionality.

18th June 2006, 02:40 PM	#28
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Now I've a problem, it's not a bazaar knife or a 'wedding Nimcha'. Its functional and well made, it has age .......so what is it It can't be unique, has anyone any ideas as to origin, now the functionality of this knife is confirmed....please

18th June 2006, 04:32 PM	#30
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I see your point, but the blade is still relatively sharp, with no evidence of recent sharpening, it is very sturdy and feels very functional. The history given to me was that this was indeed a weapon brought back from WW1. The curve of the blade is less acute than the wedding Nimcha posted, making it more effective as a slashing type blade. The area mid way along the blade is the sharpist... again pointing to its ability to 'slash'. The carving on the handle is very good quality, and improves the 'grip' considerably without being too ornate. The guard in the photos look thin and weak. However this is not the case, I have tried to bend it and found it to be very strong and would certainly protect the hand. Why make a ceremonial knife with a functional blade.... surely ceremonial or ritual weapons are representations ......