Solid 'silver' Tulwar hilt for comment

[Atlantia]

Picked this one up today. Solid 'white metal'. Was quite tarnished and oxidised.
Nickel, white brass or low grade silver?
It marks very easily so is quite soft.
Quality seems good, it feels absolutely amazing in hand. Like a real fighter, great grip, comfortable and a good range of movement.
Can anyone add any information? Age, area, material?
I've seen plenty of brass and steel but never solid 'silver' metal.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Can anyone add any information? Age, area, material?

Hi "Atlantia"
white metal ... ... absolutely Indian specialty
what it is made ?? very good question .... I never got an answer

to make your own idea ... type on "google"
"indian white metal" ==> About 3,430,000 results (0.23 seconds)
and ... have a nice time for reading
I know how it's looks, I have at home a double door,

what I know ...
it's looks like silver
it's not a silver
it's looks like nickel
it's not a nickel
it's looks like stainless steel
it's lnot a stainless steel
... it's "white metal" ...
but I dunno more, even under torture, don't try ... I'll not speak

à +

Dom

[Tatyana Dianova]

Gene: I advice you to buy the silver testing acid. It costs around 2 Euro, and it wasn't a problem to order it on Internet even here, in Germany. It will definitely be the most useful buy :-)

[Atlantia]

LOL, thanks Dom,
So you think it might not be silver then?


Hi Tatyana,
It's a good idea!
The metal is soft, I straightened the langlets by hand,

I think it's quite a good quality hilt.

Any further ideas anyone?

[Battara]

Both would be soft, silver even more. I agree with Tatyana either get a testing kit or take it to a jeweler for testing. I could be either white metal (usually nickel-copper alloy) or low silver (75-80%).

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Battara

Both would be soft, silver even more. I agree with Tatyana either get a testing kit or take it to a jeweler for testing. I could be either white metal (usually nickel-copper alloy) or low silver (75-80%).

Hi Jose
Thanks

Any thoughts on age, region, quality?

P.S. It's probobly white brass in all honesty.
I'll have a look and see if I can find a cheap silver test kit that'll test the lower grade silvers.

[katana]

Hi Gene,
some interesting info here, nothing conclusive though
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=sind

Regards David

[rickystl]

Hello Atlantia. Can't add much here in the knowledge department. But have to comment that is a beautiful hilt !!! It would be interesting to find out if it is/is not silver. Is there any evidence that a blade was attached sometime in the past? Again, great looking hilt. Rick.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Gene,
some interesting info here, nothing conclusive though
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=sind

Regards David

Hi David,
Thanks I looked there first tbh. Nothing like mine unfortunately.
My initial thoughts were that it's a 'dressy' palace guard or military style hilt.

Type of hilt where you'd want some uniformity, but also something well made and quite flash.

[Jens Nordlunde]

There are Indian grips like the one you have, if yours is of silver, is so far unknown as it seems. Some of the others are like yours and some have leaves, but general showing the same design. As I understand it, most of the others have silver hilts - but there may also be other metal combinations.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

There are Indian grips like the one you have, if yours is of silver, is so far unknown as it seems. Some of the others are like yours and some have leaves, but general showing the same design. As I understand it, most of the others have silver hilts - but there may also be other metal combinations.

Hi Jens,

Thanks for the help. Do you have any idea of origin or date?
I'll get a silver test kit, but it's probobly just 'white metal'.

Thanks
Gene

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Gene,
I cannot resist completely agreeing with everyone, this is a beautiful hilt, and though far from being a metallurgist, it surely seems silver to me! It seems to me that silver was not typical in Indian hilts, though obviously there were likely exceptions. Also, the 'chevron' pattern on the grip to me recalls many Indian blades, often on tulwars, made in alternating light and dark colored metal. These were highly symbolic and apparantly represented the two most important rivers in many perceptions in India; the Ganges (light) and the Yamuni (dark). These chevron pattern blade swords were termed 'ganga-yamuni' (Pant. p.96, fig. LXXXVII).

These appear to have been from Rajasthan regions as early as mid 18th century, but most known appear later in the 19th. With this hilt in silver, with the unusual grip motif, and with conspicuous absence of floral or the often seen other motif, especially on the pommel disc, I am wondering if this might be a latter 19th century example somehow connected to the British Raj, as it appears a hilt form more common to 'court' type swords of the Northwest.
Perhaps the somewhat well known tulwars with chevron blades (some of these parade swords of the 'tears of the wounded' style) may have had influence on a weapon intended for such use.

Very nice!!!

All the best,
Jim

[indiablade]

ITS NICKEL. I TOLD YOU THAT WHEN YOU BOUGHT IT.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by indiablade

ITS NICKEL. I TOLD YOU THAT WHEN YOU BOUGHT IT.

Hi Ray,

Try the Caps lock.

Pure Nickel would be nice, but it's more likely an alloy (that possibly includes Nickel).
Cupronickel, 'white copper' etc. One of the family of 'white metals' used to simulate Silver at lesser cost. Like Alpacca (white copper) is often called 'German Silver'.
If memory serves, pure Nickel is actually magnetic, so that would also suggest that this is an alloy.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Gene,
I cannot resist completely agreeing with everyone, this is a beautiful hilt, and though far from being a metallurgist, it surely seems silver to me! It seems to me that silver was not typical in Indian hilts, though obviously there were likely exceptions. Also, the 'chevron' pattern on the grip to me recalls many Indian blades, often on tulwars, made in alternating light and dark colored metal. These were highly symbolic and apparantly represented the two most important rivers in many perceptions in India; the Ganges (light) and the Yamuni (dark). These chevron pattern blade swords were termed 'ganga-yamuni' (Pant. p.96, fig. LXXXVII).

These appear to have been from Rajasthan regions as early as mid 18th century, but most known appear later in the 19th. With this hilt in silver, with the unusual grip motif, and with conspicuous absence of floral or the often seen other motif, especially on the pommel disc, I am wondering if this might be a latter 19th century example somehow connected to the British Raj, as it appears a hilt form more common to 'court' type swords of the Northwest.
Perhaps the somewhat well known tulwars with chevron blades (some of these parade swords of the 'tears of the wounded' style) may have had influence on a weapon intended for such use.

Very nice!!!

All the best,
Jim

Fantastic Information Jim,

I'll digest it all after work, thank you.

Best
Gene

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by indiablade

ITS NICKEL. I TOLD YOU THAT WHEN YOU BOUGHT IT.

How eloquent and emphatically noted in capitals in such courtesy! It seems to me that Gene's question was fairly placed, and not just asking for the material used, but for more on the potential history of the weapon. This is actually the kind of questions I always look forward to seeing, and dont really think publically chastizing Gene is really warranted. As Gene has noted, German silver is indeed a cheaper form of material using nickel as an alloy base as I understand, and indeed was used a great deal in military type weapons in the 19th century, again adding to my suggestion in earlier post.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Gene,
I cannot resist completely agreeing with everyone, this is a beautiful hilt, and though far from being a metallurgist, it surely seems silver to me! It seems to me that silver was not typical in Indian hilts, though obviously there were likely exceptions. Also, the 'chevron' pattern on the grip to me recalls many Indian blades, often on tulwars, made in alternating light and dark colored metal. These were highly symbolic and apparantly represented the two most important rivers in many perceptions in India; the Ganges (light) and the Yamuni (dark). These chevron pattern blade swords were termed 'ganga-yamuni' (Pant. p.96, fig. LXXXVII).

These appear to have been from Rajasthan regions as early as mid 18th century, but most known appear later in the 19th. With this hilt in silver, with the unusual grip motif, and with conspicuous absence of floral or the often seen other motif, especially on the pommel disc, I am wondering if this might be a latter 19th century example somehow connected to the British Raj, as it appears a hilt form more common to 'court' type swords of the Northwest.
Perhaps the somewhat well known tulwars with chevron blades (some of these parade swords of the 'tears of the wounded' style) may have had influence on a weapon intended for such use.

Very nice!!!

All the best,
Jim

Hi Jim,

Thanks again for the Info.
Of course, the chevron pattern!
LOL, funny how something can be right in front of you and still remain 'hidden'.
I've always loved those chevron blades.
I had absolutely no idea that they had such significance!
You are a mine of information, 'ganga-yamuni', light and dark!

Great observations about this type of hilt and the possibility of a connection with the Raj, serious food for thought, thank you again!

Best
Gene

P.S.
Just as an interesting aside on the question of testing for Silver itself.
I found an interesting note on two simple methods of using Sulphur.
Thought it might be of use to members with white metal items.
Presumably the darker and more 'black' the colour, the higher the silver content.

"FRENCH'S BRAND YELLOW MUSTARD TEST This first method requires that the tester apply a very small amount of French's brand yellow mustard to the surface of the shiny metal. Ideally the mustard drop should then be heated, either in the sun or with a cigarette lighter. Let me explain; this brand of mustard contains a very high amount of sulfur and when heated the volatile sulfur molecule will ALWAYS combine with pure silver to make the dark black stain known as silver sulfide (which is easily cleaned away with vinegar by the way).

THE SULFUR MATCH TEST The second method may attract more attention than desired, especially when attempted inside a store, under a proprietor's watchful gaze. Yet this method is even more effective take a match and press it against the metal surface to be tested and then light it on fire with another match. The sulfur is extremely hot as it combusts and it will certainly combine with pure silver when ignited in this fashion. It will not however mark nickel, steel, or chrome or any other shiny metal the way it marks silver (a black stain). Again this dark metal is silver sulfide it will not wipe away with your finger and must be cleaned off the metal with another agent. Its important to note that both of these tests will not harm the metal and can be easily cleaned away."

[Jim McDougall]

You bet Gene!!! and thank you for the testing tips.....I'll file away for future reference. It really is amazing how impressive silver is on one of these hilts even without floral motif, sometimes simplicity can be stunning!

All the best,
Jim

[katana]

Interesting ways of silver testing, thanks Gene also found this....

Cool Down
Use an ice cube to test the purity of your silver. This process works best with smaller pieces, such as silverware. Take a small ice cube, and place it on your silver item. If the entire utensil cools down within 10 seconds, you are working with real silver. If it takes closer to 30 seconds, it may be silver plated. This test is not the most scientific, but it will be a broad indicator and will help you decide whether you would like to test further.

All the best
David

[Battara]

Originally Posted by katana

Interesting ways of silver testing, thanks Gene also found this....

Cool Down
Use an ice cube to test the purity of your silver. This process works best with smaller pieces, such as silverware. Take a small ice cube, and place it on your silver item. If the entire utensil cools down within 10 seconds, you are working with real silver. If it takes closer to 30 seconds, it may be silver plated. This test is not the most scientific, but it will be a broad indicator and will help you decide whether you would like to test further.

All the best
David

The only problem I see with this is if the piece is copper with silver plate - heat disperses instantly with silver and copper.