Greek Daggers for ID + Translation pls.

[Atlantia]

Can anyone shed any light on these Ka'mas please?
Notice that one is left and one is right handed?
My Greek is nil, so if anyone could help with a translation please?

Thanks
Gene

[pakana]

So, in the first picture the first knife writes:

Mitilini, May of 1916 (Mitilini is a Greek island in the northwest of Greece)

The second knife writes:

Kydonia, March of 1916 (Kydonia is the old name of the town of Chania in the island of Crete in the south of Greece). Unless it is another Kydonia in another part of Greece

Now, in the second picture the writings are in poet form which is not traslated so good in English, but I'll try my best.

First knife: My poor chest has become a library, and inside it has been printed lots of grief and sorrow

second knife: I was born in pain, I will die in suffering, and suffering will be writen on my tombstone

Hope that helps


George

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by pakana

So, in the first picture the first knife writes:

Mitilini, May of 1916 (Mitilini is a Greek island in the northwest of Greece)

The second knife writes:

Kydonia, March of 1916 (Kydonia is the old name of the town of Chania in the island of Crete in the south of Greece). Unless it is another Kydonia in another part of Greece

Now, in the second picture the writings are in poet form which is not traslated so good in English, but I'll try my best.

First knife: My poor chest has become a library, and inside it has been printed lots of grief and sorrow

second knife: I was born in pain, I will die in suffering, and suffering will be writen on my tombstone

Hope that helps


George

Hi George,

Thats amazing thank you.
Why are the inscriptions so dark? I'm really suprised!
Thank you so much for your help.
Best Regards
Gene

[pakana]

Hi Gene,

You are most welcome.

BTW very good knifes you got there. Beautiful stuff!!!

Regards

George

[ariel]

Interesting... Based on the form of handles and the crude manner of decorations, I would have thought of Syria, or shibria-type .
But the inscriptions..... Was it in vogue to sound so bathetic? I guess Prozac was not yet invented, otherwise the general outlook of the owners would have been more cheerful.

[pakana]

So, after a quick search on the net, I found out that Kydonia is also a village in Mytilini. So, both knifes belonged probably to the same man, given the fact that they are identical, with the same hand writing on both.

Maybe the bearer was very good at knifefighting, holding a knife in each hand??

Regards

George

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by pakana

Hi Gene,

You are most welcome.

BTW very good knifes you got there. Beautiful stuff!!!

Regards

George

Hi George,

I'm really pleased with them. Even more pleased now that I can understand their 'message'.

I have to echo Ariels question, were such 'fatalistic' inscriptions usual?
I've never seen ones quite like this before.

Best
Gene

[pakana]

Originally Posted by ariel

Interesting... Based on the form of handles and the crude manner of decorations, I would have thought of Syria, or shibria-type .
But the inscriptions..... Was it in vogue to sound so bathetic? I guess Prozac was not yet invented, otherwise the general outlook of the owners would have been more cheerful.

Hey Ariel, you forget that Greece gave birth to drama? It's in the nature of Greek to be, sometimes, a little more dramatic


George

[pakana]

Usually, this kind of poetry written on knifes is seen on Cretan knifes, and it resembles to Cretan "mantinada", which is poetry in two lines, usually with a variety of themes, most of them with a dramatic tone.

George

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by pakana

So, after a quick search on the net, I found out that Kydonia is also a village in Mytilini. So, both knifes belonged probably to the same man, given the fact that they are identical, with the same hand writing on both.

Maybe the bearer was very good at knifefighting, holding a knife in each hand??

Regards

George

Ahh, I see.
Is there significance to the two greek flags beside the shield and crown do you know?

Best
Gene

[pakana]

Ι don't know Gene, but both flags cover the modern history of Greece because the one with only the cross is considered the "old" flag, while the other with the cross and the lines is the "new" flag which is used until today.

George

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by pakana

Ι don't know Gene, but both flags cover the modern history of Greece because the one with only the cross is considered the "old" flag, while the other with the cross and the lines is the "new" flag which is used until today.

George

Thanks George, you've been an absolute star helping with these!

[pakana]

Νο worries Gene, glad I helped.

George

[eftihis]

Hi, these knifes are a fantastic example on how history can become living again through objects! To do that we must see the places of "Kydonies" (today Aivalik, in the aegean coast of Turkey oposite Mytilene), and the island of Mytilene in Greece, in the time context of 1916, were the knifes were made.
Aivalik= kydonies, was in the beggining of 20th century inhabited almost entirely by Greeks, with a population of 35-40.000 people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayval%C4%B1k
From 1909 onwards, prosecution started against the inhabitants by the Ottoman authorities. We are at a time with a high rise of nationalism from all nations of balkan states, but also from Turkish officials that understand that the multi-culture ottoman empire comes to an end, and who they try to clean the state from all non muslim populations.
Then the balkan wars and the first world war started and in 1916 (when the knifes were made) some wealthy inhabitants passed as refuges in Mytilene.
In 1917, almost all inhabitants were detained in the inner parts of Asia Minor...
The Greek army occypied the city in 1919, and at that time many of the refuges returned. However they all left again after the defeat of the Greek army in 1922.
So, the inscriptions are not an eccentric expression of fatalistic mood, but rather a mirror of the tragedy lived by a person, who ordered the first knife as an inhabitant of Kydonies in March 1916, and he ordered the second as a refuge in Mytilene in May 1916...
Also note that only the second knife made in MAy 1916, when he was already a refuge at Greek soil has the Greek flag! It was probably to dangerous to have it with a Greek flag when he was still in Aivalik.
Bellow there is a link with the detailed history of Kydonies in Greek, and i am also pasting a google translation in English.
Great items!!!
http://blogthea.gr/%CE%BB%CE%B1%CE%B...%B5%CF%83.html
In Ayvalik inhabited predominantly Orthodox Christians, but there were also some Muslim families, particularly families 25-30 Ottoman officials, and about 10 Gypsy families. The latter lived in the neighborhood Atsinganaria. Kept stores and spoke Greek. Estimates of tourists the city's population during the prerevolutionary period ranged between 25,000 and 40.000.5 at the same level range and estimates for the subsequent period. According to figures published in 1896 in the journal Xenophanes population amounted to 35.000.6 in the early 20th century lived in Ayvalik 30000-35000 Orthodox Christians, of whom 4,000 were Greek nationals. There he lived another five Catholic families and two Evraion.7Kata somewhat lower estimates are derived from the investigation of oral testimonies that speak of 25000-30000 inhabitants


The heyday of Ayvalik, built after 1773 and attributed to the privileges granted to Christians, then residents of the city by the Ottoman administration. The issue of the firman was after effects of known local governor John Economou. During this period there is a large increase in population due to immigration facility. Apart from the Peloponnese, in Ayvalik went well Epirus, Thessaly, and Islanders, both in the Aegean Sea, mainly from Lesbos and other islands of the eastern Aegean and the Syrian and Patmos, and the Ionian Sea .9 The migrations are contributed to the creation of an almost purely Christian city. The phenomenon is part of the broad movements of the Aegean islands and mainland Greece to the west coast of Asia Minor took place at that time.
The next major milestone in the history of the city was destroyed Ayvalık by the Ottoman army and its abandonment in 1821. An important part of the refugees returned gradually from 1827 to 1832, resulting in the reestablishment of the city. In 1832 a firman was issued and the relevant setting out the conditions for reimbursement of real estate and regulate the ownership and tax status of residents. New decree issued in 1840 stipulated the inclusion of Ayvalik in the sanjak Baloukeser (Qarase). After the so-called rehabilitation of refugees followed the gradual development and Ayvalik became again one of the major cities of the western coast of Asia Minor.
On June 4, 1909, in response to intra erida10 and after having strengthened the garrison of the city, declared martial law, under the new political climate that had emerged after the revolution of the Young Turks. The elders were sentenced by a military court and imprisoned. Those involved in politics, and religious and educational officers, accused of being enemies of the state, while the people were asked to "dedicate ourselves to the idean one, large, compact and evenly Ottoman fatherland '.11 After the expiry of martial law two months later, the situation normalized.
The Balkan wars and the first World War and then again gave rise to controversy and persecution of the Christian subjects of the empire. As early as 1914 had taken refuge in Ayvalik Pergamon refugees from areas of Adramyttinou Bay and the villages of the municipality Kisthinis. But in the town of Ayvalik, the situation was explosive, resulting in some affluent residents forced to flee in Mytilene in 1916. On March 14, 1917 ordered the deportation of all residents aged 18-80 years in the interior of Asia Minor. In Ayvalik remained only 256 people to serve the needs of the army and mitropolitis.12
After the city's occupation by the Greek army in 1919 returned to the displaced and the gradual rebuilding of the city, which was stopped but was restarted after the defeat and withdrawal of the Greek army in 1922. Then were all men aged 18-45 years to appear before the Turkish authorities as conscripts. Of those others died in tragic circumstances and others came to Greece in exchange of populations. The rest of the population moved ultimately to Greece with Greek ships under the supervision of the American Red Cross.

[Atlantia]

Just wanted to make sure I've got the translations correct to their pictures as I realised I'd swapped the positions in the 1st and 2nd photo:
Are these correct?

1st:

Kydonia, March of 1916: "I was born in pain, I will die in suffering, and suffering will be written on my tombstone"

[Atlantia]

2nd:

Mitilini, May of 1916: "My poor chest has become a library, and inside it has been printed lots of grief and sorrow"

[Atlantia]

Eftihis.

Just digesting all the inormation, will be back once finished. Thanks for coming into this with so much.

Best
Gene

[eftihis]

Yes, they are in the right order.

[Atlantia]

Hi Eftihis,

Excellent information and research on these Ka'mas, thank you very much.
It really adds so much to owning them to have such a complete context for their origins and background.
The profound sadness of the inscriptions is completely understandable now that the context of their choosing is understood.

I know that you have an extensive collection Eftihis, have you encountered examples like these before?

Regards
Gene

[A.alnakkas]

Congrats Gene, Excellent pieces with deep history.

Like Ariel, I notice great similarity with the Arab shibriya. The only completely different part is the blade.

[eftihis]

You are welcome Gene!
Just to add a point on the kamas, it is also possible that the refuge was actually the knife maker himself, and having his shop in KYdonies made the first knife there and the second he made (or completed) as a refuge in Mytilene.
Regarding Greek kama's, look at the photos below for areally funny inscription.
It is made in Elasona (central Greece), at that time part of Ottoman territory.
Although most probably made to be sold to a muslim client (note the minaret and the star and crescent) the inscription is in Greek stating the incredible: "I am a good kama, give money and buy me"!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by eftihis

You are welcome Gene!
Just to add a point on the kamas, it is also possible that the refuge was actually the knife maker himself, and having his shop in KYdonies made the first knife there and the second he made (or completed) as a refuge in Mytilene.
Regarding Greek kama's, look at the photos below for areally funny inscription.
It is made in Elasona (central Greece), at that time part of Ottoman territory.
Although most probably made to be sold to a muslim client (note the minaret and the star and crescent) the inscription is in Greek stating the incredible: "I am a good kama, give money and buy me"!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Eftihis,

Excellent point about the owner possibly being the knife maker. It would make perfect sense.
I will try to make sure that they are never separated.

Its amazing that despite the overwhelming nature of the pain and loss that their maker/owner felt, there is no anger or call for retribution evident in the words.
I find myself hoping very much that his heart was eventually healed in Mytilene.


What a fantastic example you have there Eftihis!
Thank you for sharing it. I love the decoration. Especially the moons with faces, and the 'bent' Minaret!
Great humour in the inscription.
Do you have many of this type?
Can I ask what the dimensions are? My pair are both quite small
23cm and 23.5cm overall.

Best
Gene