I.D. knife consencous

Tim Simmons · 9th October 2009, 10:17 PM

A new book arrived today with two knives pictured in it. I am curious as to the attribution of origin. This is not a test and the fist picture is from an area I do not have interest in but I still want to question them. Unfortunately the picture is a bit small and the blade is not shown. It is meant to be from an early collestion, 18th cent, the scabbard and handle do seem familiar? I will post the other picture latter.

Norman McCormick · 9th October 2009, 10:21 PM

Hi Tim,
The hilt is reminiscent of 18th C hunting swords and the scabbard suggests the type of knife known as the 'English Bowie'.
My Regards,
Norman.

Tim Simmons · 10th October 2009, 05:29 PM

Let tackle this another way. Does this knife look like it could be 1700s Ottoman?

ingelred · 10th October 2009, 09:29 PM

I would vote for central Europe.
To me it looks like a German or Austrian hunting knife, a so called Nicker.
Just my two cents.

Greetings, Helge

TVV · 10th October 2009, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Let tackle this another way. Does this knife look like it could be 1700s Ottoman?

No, not at all.

Bryan.H · 13th October 2009, 05:33 PM

I'd tend to agree with Norman on this, it looks similar to the Naval dirks of 18th century Europe, and the sheath/ scabbard is reminiscent of the English sidearm/ knives of that period. This one is on the Michael D Long militaria site.

Atlantia · 13th October 2009, 11:12 PM

What worries me about this knife is the sheath having the big leather belt attachment with belt slits. Like on the FS commando knife.
I'm only aware of that being used on later 19thC knives.
Might be wrong of course.
I'd have expected a 'button' like on the one Bryan posted

Tim Simmons · 15th October 2009, 05:53 PM

Thanks for all the replies, they have been really helpful.
I too was curious about the scabbard belt slits. I would very like to add to this thread but I have a BT moden problem which will hopefully be sorted by the 19th of Oct. I can say that this knife and the other example I intend to post are from a famous? German university collection. As soon as I can I will continue. Thanks so far.

Tim Simmons · 3rd November 2009, 10:01 PM

Sorry to take so long in getting back to this thread but my PC has been behaving very badly of late. I have worked out how I can still usefully operate it. The man has been round and says he wants to take it away but I am not quite ready.

These pictures in question are from a new book of a university collection in Germany. The Asch Collection Gottingen- Siberia and Russian America, Culture and Art from the 1700s,-Prestel. I do not want write an essay as an invitation to discuss so here are just a few bits to start.

The Siberia and Russian America collection in the book is bulked out with some other stuff from China, Tibet, Europe and the middle east that does not interest me. It is not a book about weapons except for the two example shown. There are two pictures of the curved blade one a little bigger but still not good, can I see a snake on the blade? Africa? I have included the relevant text.

One thing the book did make me think of is the possible trade in iron from Siberia, quite possible centuries before the standard notion of trade from the west? We see small pieces of iron fashioned in very different way to European knives. I Know the Arctic peoples hand large canoe/sea vessels perhaps room for small pieces of iron was found on these craft. The metals would not have been abundant for the Siberians although available from the northern far east?

Anyway here are the pictures. comments welcome.

ariel · 3rd November 2009, 10:22 PM

Chantshat, chantshar is most likely Khandjar.
The remaining two, do not look Turkish to me as well.
Museum descriptions and attributions may be tricky, to put it mildly :-)

9th October 2009, 10:17 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I.D. knife consencous A new book arrived today with two knives pictured in it. I am curious as to the attribution of origin. This is not a test and the fist picture is from an area I do not have interest in but I still want to question them. Unfortunately the picture is a bit small and the blade is not shown. It is meant to be from an early collestion, 18th cent, the scabbard and handle do seem familiar? I will post the other picture latter. Attached Images

3rd November 2009, 10:01 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Sorry to take so long in getting back to this thread but my PC has been behaving very badly of late. I have worked out how I can still usefully operate it. The man has been round and says he wants to take it away but I am not quite ready. These pictures in question are from a new book of a university collection in Germany. The Asch Collection Gottingen- Siberia and Russian America, Culture and Art from the 1700s,-Prestel. I do not want write an essay as an invitation to discuss so here are just a few bits to start. The Siberia and Russian America collection in the book is bulked out with some other stuff from China, Tibet, Europe and the middle east that does not interest me. It is not a book about weapons except for the two example shown. There are two pictures of the curved blade one a little bigger but still not good, can I see a snake on the blade? Africa? I have included the relevant text. One thing the book did make me think of is the possible trade in iron from Siberia, quite possible centuries before the standard notion of trade from the west? We see small pieces of iron fashioned in very different way to European knives. I Know the Arctic peoples hand large canoe/sea vessels perhaps room for small pieces of iron was found on these craft. The metals would not have been abundant for the Siberians although available from the northern far east? Anyway here are the pictures. comments welcome. Attached Images

9th October 2009, 10:21 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi Tim, The hilt is reminiscent of 18th C hunting swords and the scabbard suggests the type of knife known as the 'English Bowie'. My Regards, Norman.

10th October 2009, 05:29 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Let tackle this another way. Does this knife look like it could be 1700s Ottoman?

10th October 2009, 09:29 PM	#4
ingelred Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Moenchengladbach, Germany Posts: 62	I would vote for central Europe. To me it looks like a German or Austrian hunting knife, a so called Nicker. Just my two cents. Greetings, Helge

13th October 2009, 05:33 PM	#6
Bryan.H Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 51	I'd tend to agree with Norman on this, it looks similar to the Naval dirks of 18th century Europe, and the sheath/ scabbard is reminiscent of the English sidearm/ knives of that period. This one is on the Michael D Long militaria site.

13th October 2009, 11:12 PM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	What worries me about this knife is the sheath having the big leather belt attachment with belt slits. Like on the FS commando knife. I'm only aware of that being used on later 19thC knives. Might be wrong of course. I'd have expected a 'button' like on the one Bryan posted

15th October 2009, 05:53 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Thanks for all the replies, they have been really helpful. I too was curious about the scabbard belt slits. I would very like to add to this thread but I have a BT moden problem which will hopefully be sorted by the 19th of Oct. I can say that this knife and the other example I intend to post are from a famous? German university collection. As soon as I can I will continue. Thanks so far.

3rd November 2009, 10:22 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Chantshat, chantshar is most likely Khandjar. The remaining two, do not look Turkish to me as well. Museum descriptions and attributions may be tricky, to put it mildly :-)