Celebes keris?

[Harley]

Hello guys,

This is what i thought was a Celebes keris, but going true the old topic's, i got my doubts, the blades that i have seen don't look like this one.
I also have read that these blades don't get a warangan treatment, so i must clean the blade, (he's already a little rusty), if it is from Celebes.
The blade without the pesi is 34 cm, and the pesi is short and bent.
Sorry for the blurry pictures, but it was raining.

regards,
Ben

[danny1976]

Hallo Ben ,

IMHO this is a Javanese blade that you have there.
how is the fitting of the blade in the waranka mouth ?

It happens more to see Javanese blades in a bugis sheath , maybe it is already a long time like this , because maybe a Javanese moved to Sumatra and had his ''pusaka'' blade dressed in a ''local'' dress ??

It is just a idea , i dont know

regards ,

Danny

[Harley]

Hoi Danny,

I must agree that i am not so sure anymore that it is from Celebes.
The blade fits perfect in the mouth, but it misses the style of a Bugis blade, so it could be it's a redressed Javanese blade.
I had bought this keris 15/20 years ago, and assuming that it was Bugis ,
if it is Javanese the only problem is to make the pesi back straight.
Thanks for your opinion Danny.

regards,
Ben

[danny1976]

Hi Ben,


About the straiten the peksi , If it was mine I would put it in a bankschroef .
if you do that easy it will do no harm.

regards,

danny

[Harley]

Thanks Danny,

I think that is the safest way to do it.

regards,
Ben

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by danny1976

If it was mine I would put it in a bankschroef .

Danny, I think it's called a benchscrew...

[A. G. Maisey]

I normally just put a bit heat into the tang with a gas torch and hammer the tang flat. No need to get it red hot, just warm it up a bit. It only takes a few light taps to straighten.

Sometimes with tang that's not too thick you can just straighten it cold with your fingers.

[PenangsangII]

the pamor garap looks like senopaten era garap (or even Majapahit). But the material looks from newer era. I am puzzled too

and ofcourse people of Nusantara move about from island to island even after WWII. Restrictions only took place around 1950s.

[Harley]

Thanks Alan, I think it's a good idea to give it a little heat, i would reckon that it makes the change of breaking less.


Thanks PenangsangII for your answer, is there anything that i could do to give you a better view, better pictures or clean the blade?

regards,
Ben

[Sajen]

Hi Ben,

when the fit is good in this sheath I would let the keris with this sheath. Only the pendokok seems to be a little bit to small in diameter.

Regards,

Detlef

[Rick]

Just thinking out loud; perhaps straightening the pesi is not a good idea if one wishes to use the same handle .

[Harley]

Hi Detlef and Rick,

I don´t think i will use this sheath now that i know the blade is Javanese, it´s a good fit, but i don´t like it, i´ll think i have to make one more sheath
I can´t give you an explanation why i don´t like to have a blade and sheath that are not from the same area, it´s just my idea.
And hopefully someday i find a Bugis blade for this sheath.
Thanks for your opinion!

regards,
Ben

[Henk]

I would leave this keris as it is.

I had the same idea as Rick, leave the pesi as it is and keep this ukiran.

The blade however might be a javanese blade. Javanese blades where highly apreciated, brought to these areas and mounted in Bugis or Celebes dress. The javanese blades where so much apreciated that blades where even forged in these areas after javanese examples

[Harley]

Hi Henk,

You guys are giving me a hard time , just kidding, i appreciate the opinions
you've given.
I know that it's something thats not unusual, but why am i trying to give the lonely blade's a sheath that would fit for the area they come from, if i didn't take notice of it with this one?
I am not in a hurry, because i,m still busy with the other sheaths, so i have time to think about it.

regards,
Ben

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by Henk

I would leave this keris as it is.

I had the same idea as Rick, leave the pesi as it is and keep this ukiran.

The blade however might be a javanese blade. Javanese blades where highly apreciated, brought to these areas and mounted in Bugis or Celebes dress. The javanese blades where so much apreciated that blades where even forged in these areas after javanese examples

I agree. Imo also the pesi is good . The curve of the pesi should be fully secure the bugis handle in the right position chosen by the previous owner (without to put other material around the pesi)
PS: I like a lot pamor patter of your keris

[David]

Originally Posted by Harley

You guys are giving me a hard time , just kidding, i appreciate the opinions you've given.
I know that it's something thats not unusual, but why am i trying to give the lonely blade's a sheath that would fit for the area they come from, if i didn't take notice of it with this one?
I am not in a hurry, because i,m still busy with the other sheaths, so i have time to think about it.

You know Harley, i am in full agreement with Henk. If indeed this sheath appears to have been made for this blade i would leave it dressed just as is. You often find blades from Jawa dressed in other styles either because the blade travelled in trade to one of the other islands or it's owner migrated to one of these other islands and decided to dress his blade in the style of his new home. From my perspective these keris come with a history and i am always surprised to find that many collectors want to lose that history in order to either upgrade a keris that they have no family connection with or dress it in a manner that they deem more culturally correct. This seems a shame to me as the history of a keris is an important part of what i am trying to collect and maintain in my own collection. Certainly it is true that we sometimes run across "frankenkeris" creations thrown together by dealers just trying to make a sale, but if it seems at all that this marriage of blade and dress has any real ethnographic history to it i would just leave it be.

[Harley]

It looks like i am overruled here, i reckon i am the only one with this strange way of thinking
But it definitely made me to give it a second taught!
Thanks Marco

regards,
Ben

[asomotif]

Hello Ben,

Nice keris. The fit in the scabbard looks good. So I am also in favour of keeping it as it is. I would probably even not straighten the peksi unless it would give an inproper fitting of the hilt.

As for turning this into a javanese keris ?
Why bother, when there are plenty of nice javanese keris available.
Expand your collection find a nice javanese keris in javanese dress.

Best regards,
Willem

[Harley]

David,

I fully agree that the history is important, but what about the Bali keris that I've shown, the sheath i think was made for that blade,
OK the pendok was a bad repair, but it had a sort of history behind it.
It was a plain ugly sheath, but the woodwork was not bad at all, I've i had shared your opinion, then that wasn't a good choice either.
I can't tell you if this Javanese blade and sheath has a history, or it's just done to sell, it comes from a antique shop, so it could be both way's.
But these are the things that are so great about this forum, everyone give there honest opinion, and i respect that fully.

regards,
Ben

[Harley]

thanks Willem,

I was going to straighten the pesi for the Javanese sheath and hilt, but when i read all the response it's not a good idea
You know Willem not everyone is the same position, the only way for me to expand my collection is the way i do now, buying blades and make a sheath an urikan, maybe not the real thing, but for me it will do.
My little collection exist of almost all Javanese keris, so that is not the point

best regards,
Ben

[Sajen]

Hi Ben,

can you give us a picture from up when the blade is inside the sheath? And as well a look inside the sheath mouth without blade?

BTW, the Bugis sheath is very very nice!

Best,

Detlef

[Harley]

Hi Detlef,

I have tried to make the pictures, but i had to do it with my mobile cause the batteries of my camera are empty.
I've these are no good i try to make better ones tomorrow.

Thanks, i like the sheath also.

best regards,
Ben

[David]

Originally Posted by Harley

I fully agree that the history is important, but what about the Bali keris that I've shown, the sheath i think was made for that blade,
OK the pendok was a bad repair, but it had a sort of history behind it.
It was a plain ugly sheath, but the woodwork was not bad at all, I've i had shared your opinion, then that wasn't a good choice either.
I can't tell you if this Javanese blade and sheath has a history, or it's just done to sell, it comes from a antique shop, so it could be both way's.

If i recall that Bali keris correctly that sheath appeared to be a bit of a mishmash of styles that probably was indeed thrown together to make the keris salable. The woodwork wasn't particularly good, but also didn't appear to be a very good example of any true Balinese style of dress. At best it was rough village work that didn't really adhere to the standards of the form it was attempting to emulate.
OTOH, this Celebes sheath appears to be fairly nicely crafted of some very nice wood. The fit looks custom to me and my personal assumption would be that this keris was in "service" as a Celebes keris. A keris found in a particular dress like this can fairly and rightfully be referred to as being a keris of that particular culture regardless of the origin of the blade. Again, this is fairly common practice. As was mentioned in a recent thread, the legendary keris Taming Sari was said to have been made in Jawa, but is now considered part of the royal regalia of the Sultan of Perak, Malaysia. It is dressed as a Malay keris and considered a Malay keris.
Your are obviously quite good at woodworking and i would hate to deprive you of the pleasure of creating a new sheath for this blade if that is your choice and desire. I certainly wish i had your skill set as i have a couple of underdressed Bali keris that i would love to create sheaths for, especially if i could produce a traditional looking Bali gayaman as accurately as you seem to be able to do. But if this "Celebes" keris were mine i would consider it a Celebes keris (though recognizing that it's blade does come from Jawa) and be done with it.

[A. G. Maisey]

Well put David, and just about my sentiments.


Ben can I make a suggestion?

Why not try making a keris from wood?

Several of my better items have alternate sets of dress, usually the old palace dress that they came in, which is invariably functional, quite plain, and sometimes with damage, then they have dress that I commissioned for them to the highest current standards. I usually keep these items with their modern dress, but have had copies of the blades made in wood to occupy the old dress --- something like the Japanese idea.

This is not a Javanese practice, its just something that pleases me. It means I can have the original dress on display, whilst keeping the keris or tombak itself safely stored.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Harley

Hi Detlef,

I have tried to make the pictures, but i had to do it with my mobile cause the batteries of my camera are empty.
I've these are no good i try to make better ones tomorrow.

Thanks, i like the sheath also.

best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

thank you for the pictures! They are good enough and I think like all others that this sheath was made for this blade and I never would change something without the exception that I would keep my eyes peeled for a bigger pendokok for the hilt.

Best regards,

Detlef

[PenangsangII]

i even several times purposely purchased straight Jawanese blades only (possibly the original wrangka were damaged or purchased by other buyers) then sheathed them with Pattani tebeng sarungs to emulate what could have transpired in the past

[Harley]

Hi David,

Thank you for your explanation, i agree with almost everything you've said.
What i don't understand is that you don't find the old (Bali) sheath nicely made.
I can understand that was a mix of styles, and i was ugly , but it was made properly, maybe my bad photo's has something to do with that.

I haven't read the thread of keris Taming Sari yet, i am now on page 6 and was starting on the last page, so i'll get to it.

Because of all the people who responded in this thread in i am now convinced that it is not a good thing to make a new sheath for this one
It is also not my meaning to change the sheath so i got something to do, to me at the point i heard that it was not a Bugis blade, i thought it was the right thing to do, not thinking of the history that's maybe behind it.

Thanks for the kind words David, for myself i am never satisfied, but i hope with some practice i can do a better job, and i would love to have some nice Bali blades, so we both have something to wish

Alan,

I think in you're case, with the really beautiful keris you have, it's a nice thing to do, but for the keris i have, i don't know.
And for now i still have to try and make a couple of sheaths&hilts, and that is the first priority.
I think that there will always be lose blades, so i am afraid i never get finished
But never the less thanks for your suggestion!

Thanks Detlef, point taken, see above.

I will thank everyone for there contribution on this thread and keeping me on the right track!

best regards,
Ben

[David]

Originally Posted by Harley

Thank you for your explanation, i agree with almost everything you've said.
What i don't understand is that you don't find the old (Bali) sheath nicely made.
I can understand that was a mix of styles, and i was ugly , but it was made properly, maybe my bad photo's has something to do with that.

Harley, i suggest that you go back to that Bali keris thread and re-read some of the comments. IMHO that sheath is not "properly" made nor carved with any particular finesse or understanding of the sesrengentan form it was trying to emulate. As Alan pointed out in post #10 in that thread it well may have been made in Bali and then altered in Jawa (pendok), but not by anyone with any particular knowledge of this form or style. I am therefore not convinced that it was a sheath that anyone would have proudly displayed in public in any real cultural setting. That is the difference in my mind.

[Harley]

Hi David,

I know that you're not the only one with this opinion, and as i said, it's a real ugly design, and i also agree that it does not come in the near of a sesrengentan, but we think different of the finesse of that sheath.
There was a time i was tattooing, and I've seen my share of ugly tattoos designs, done without any knowledge or other, but still i could appreciate it if the lines are good, depth, shadow, etc, so thats what i am trying so say.
I would not be ashamed I've had made that sheath(I don't have ), but only regarding the finesse, not the design.

regards,
Ben

[David]

Originally Posted by Harley

I know that you're not the only one with this opinion, and as i said, it's a real ugly design, and i also agree that it does not come in the near of a sesrengentan, but we think different of the finesse of that sheath.
There was a time i was tattooing, and I've seen my share of ugly tattoos designs, done without any knowledge or other, but still i could appreciate it if the lines are good, depth, shadow, etc, so thats what i am trying so say.
I would not be ashamed I've had made that sheath(I don't have ), but only regarding the finesse, not the design.

Ben, I don't think we can apply the same standards of tattooing to the keris. Styles are a bit more specific, less freeform. At least in the general world of Western tattooing. However, if we were examining tradition Maori tattoo design, maintaining exacting and specific form of line and design might be a bit more important from a cultural standpoint. The sheath of your Bali keris looks well constructed for sure, but the carving shows little understanding of the line and form of the sheath form it is attempting to be. That is what i mean by finesse, not whether or not the carver knows how to use his tools. From what i can see in your own attempts to create a gayaman style sheath (albeit, a simpler form), you have a far greater ability to observe and copy form than the carver of this sheath did.