Hussar Blade?

[Skarts_ss]

Hi all,
iam a new member in this forum and i would apreciate your help...
recently i found this sword in an old hause in Crete
The blade seems to be a European blade but the handle is ottoman
i think that this was originally a Hussar blade and latter the handle was remounted...am i right?
Thanks for your help!!!

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum, Skarts.
Interesting sword you got there.
Let us see what the members say about it.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Skarts_ss

Hi all,
iam a new member in this forum and i would apreciate your help...
recently i found this sword in an old hause in Crete
The blade seems to be a European blade but the handle is ottoman
i think that this was originally a Hussar blade and latter the handle was remounted...am i right?
Thanks for your help!!!

Salaams Skarts ~ Welcome ! Go onto Forum Search by simply typing in Hussars Swords for a full definition of all things Hussar...(Article: Notes on development of modern sabers - Role of Eastern Europe & the Hussars)

I reckon this is as you suspect a Turkish Ottoman sword with a degraded hilt missing its crossguard. It could be horn possibly Rhino as it looks fibrous.. Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Atlantia]

Hi Skarts_ss

Interesting sword. Blade reminds me of this shamshir.
One for the Ethno forum I'd say.
There could be something interesting under the rust.

Best
Gene

[Matchlock]

My experienced edged-weapons collector says: Turkey, 19th c.

Best,
Michael

[Jim McDougall]

Welcome Skarts!
All suggestions thus far are well placed, but I would submit that given the context in which this was found, chances are more likely this is indeed an Ottoman sabre rather than European. While European horseman sabres did largely follow Turkish blade forms, and of course in many cases other hilt features, it seems more likely given the region this was found more likely to be Ottoman.
Crete, like Greece, was under Turkish dominion and there were many rebellions against this rule in the 18th century. After 1832 Egypt, also Ottoman ruled took over in Crete. During these long occupations it does not seem unreasonable that these Ottoman swords would be present there.
Excellent comparison by Gene on the shamshir blade which has similar cross section, and the attribution to India which also saw use of these type blades in degree via trade and diplomatic situations with the Ottomans in the 19th c.

All best regards,
Jim

[eftihis]

Hi, to me it looks like an original French hussar blade that was re-used as an ottoman sword.
I think that after the NApoleonic wars there has been a surplus of weapons, (or a trade of remaining blades and parts). This could have been bought in France (or Russsia as a spoil of war), maybe together with other surplus in large quantities, exported to same parts of Ottoman teritory and re-fited according to the local fashion, and then travelled up to Crete.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by eftihis

Hi, to me it looks like an original French hussar blade that was re-used as an ottoman sword.
I think that after the NApoleonic wars there has been a surplus of weapons, (or a trade of remaining blades and parts). This could have been bought in France (or Russsia as a spoil of war), maybe together with other surplus in large quantities, exported to same parts of Ottoman teritory and re-fited according to the local fashion, and then travelled up to Crete.

Salaams eftihis~ I was meaning to add a post about the transition of Karbela and Turkish weapons down the red sea and across the Arabian region. I was considering the subject of "the adoption of the Hussars swords into the French armoury" and thus the Napoleonic wars and particularly Egypt and thus the influence onto arab swords.
I recently reintroduced the whole question of Hussars weapons onto the Ethnographic Forum with that in mind ~ clearly it is a subject that straddles both discussion groups. The incredible thread on that subject can be found on FORUM SEARCH...by typing in Hussars Swords and look for Notes on development of modern sabers - Role of Eastern Europe & the Hussars
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by eftihis

Hi, to me it looks like an original French hussar blade that was re-used as an ottoman sword.
I think that after the NApoleonic wars there has been a surplus of weapons, (or a trade of remaining blades and parts). This could have been bought in France (or Russsia as a spoil of war), maybe together with other surplus in large quantities, exported to same parts of Ottoman teritory and re-fited according to the local fashion, and then travelled up to Crete.

Hi Eftihis,
I'm curious, why French ?
As Ibrahiim has well noted there are distinct influences seen in similarities of blades with the yelman as well known in the sabres of the Turkic spheres and with European types. Actually both the French and the British were profoundly influenced by the sabres used by the Mamluks in the Egyptian campaigns, and it is generally held that these Ottoman type examples were the basis for many officers sabres in both armies during the Napoleonic wars. In England the hilt form of the Ottoman sabres became that established as the pattern for general officers in 1831. The American use of these 'pistol grip' type hilts of the Ottoman form came from thier own contact with them in conflicts in North Africa as well, and became established as the 'mameluke' sabre officially worn by Marine officers (I wrote an article on this for the USMC back in 2004).

The blade with yelman was a feature indeed adopted in East Europe by Hungary and Poland from these type sabres used by the Turks as early as the 16th century. This feature became well established on the blades of many sabres in following centuries, and in developmental studies often shows its distinct presence with Turkic tribes, while the Persians favored the lighter and deeply parabolic shamshir type blade. These were radiused to a point, without the widened yelman which is generally considered to add impetus to the cutting blow in the Turkic forms of blade.

While it does seem that the British, deeply influenced by Eastern European and Austrian in particular forms as they developed the M1796 pattern sabre, also included the 'yelman' in some types of these blades considered. The yelman was also present in the blades of many tulwars in use in India in the 18th century, thought to be influences of the earlier Turkic tribes which were progenitors of the Mughal dynasties. These may have as well been the source for the yelman on some earlier examples of British cavalry sabres, I have seen at least two forms of officers sabres with these, both c.1810.

While I think there may have been examples of French officers sabres which may have had the yelman, it is important to note that these blade types were also favored by officers of England (the American swords as far as I know did not use this feature). In any case, I think that considering the context in which this sword was found, it is far more likely that it would be of the occupying Ottoman forces over a considerable period and who were known to use these type sabres, than to have been of a European surplus provenance, which seems more tenuous.
Regardless, the influence of these swords on European forms is well noted, as shown.

All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams eftihis~ I was meaning to add a post about the transition of Karbela and Turkish weapons down the red sea and across the Arabian region. I was considering the subject of "the adoption of the Hussars swords into the French armoury" and thus the Napoleonic wars and particularly Egypt and thus the influence onto arab swords.
I recently reintroduced the whole question of Hussars weapons onto the Ethnographic Forum with that in mind ~ clearly it is a subject that straddles both discussion groups. The incredible thread on that subject can be found on FORUM SEARCH...by typing in Hussars Swords and look for Notes on development of modern sabers - Role of Eastern Europe & the Hussars
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim,
Thank you again for bringing this thread forward!
Interesting observations on the cross cultural diffusion of these blade forms as they were adopted into European types of swords. The influences of Ottoman swords of course did spread widely throughout thier empire and impacted even regions outside as well in varying degree through trade and diplomatic contacts. This is in my opinion the case with Arabian swords in more definition than European cavalry influences, at least prior to the 19th century where Ottomans began to westernize, ironically readopting various elements they had originally influenced in the first place.
The most notable influence of European cavalry swords on Arabian sabres was the increased availability of European blades, especially in the 18th and into 19th century. Hungarian blades, naturally strongly associated with 'hussar' blades (one of the decorative characters was a hussar along with military panoplies) were often found on Arabian sabres, particularly the distinct Syrian type hilts. I have even seen these carelessly misidentified as Hungarian hussar sabres in catalogues.

It has been long held that the Ottoman style hilt sabres were adopted into the European sabre forms from contact with them during the Egyptian campaigns at the end of the 18th century. At this time these were of course in use throughout Ottoman controlled regions, including much of the Arabian littoral.

The karabela is essentially a sabre with blade of the same forms used on other sabres, but with a distinctive trilobate style hilt often presumed of stylized birdhead character, the term applied more to that hilt than the sabre overall. The etymology of the term remains unclear, but is often considered to come from the city Kerbala, as well as some other suggestions ("The Polish Sabre" Jan Ostrowski ). This type sword has been labeled the national sword of Poland for parade swords of the type (naturally they were used in combat as well in many cases) but also much favored in Arabian cases. Here again I would presume the source of influence to be Ottoman swords of this 'karabela' type which influenced the Polish forms, and also the Arabian regions under Ottoman suzerainty.

Again, excellent opportunity to look seriously into developments of these sword forms and cross cultural influences.

All the best,
Jim

[Skarts_ss]

sorry if my terminology is not so good

[Skarts_ss]

Thank all of you for your replies....
I think that Eftihis is right. I have compared the blade with a similar French Hussar blade of mid 18th century and it was exactly the same. Same length(1m aproximately), same curve, the two grooves start right after the grip, ending up a few cm before the peak. It weights about 600 grams though the crossguard missing. Despite its relic condition i can say that it is of good quallity.
Usually Ottoman sabres curve more than this and the grooves start a few inches after the cross and generally i consider them as heavier.
except large quantities of weapons that were imported into Crete, There was the Egyptian rule. It is well known that at that time the Egyptian army was French equiped and French consulted...
So it is possible that it was a spoil of war from that era
Thanks again

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Skarts_ss

Thank all of you for your replies....
I think that Eftihis is right. I have compared the blade with a similar French Hussar blade of mid 18th century and it was exactly the same. Same length(1m aproximately), same curve, the two grooves start right after the grip, ending up a few cm before the peak. It weights about 600 grams though the crossguard missing. Despite its relic condition i can say that it is of good quallity.
Usually Ottoman sabres curve more than this and the grooves start a few inches after the cross and generally i consider them as heavier.
except large quantities of weapons that were imported into Crete, There was the Egyptian rule. It is well known that at that time the Egyptian army was French equiped and French consulted...
So it is possible that it was a spoil of war from that era
Thanks again

Thank you so much for that clarification and excellent description comparing these blades Skaarts!!! That perfectly answers my question on why the Frtench attribution was placed, apparantly quite correctly by Eftihis, and how that is explained. Actually I had not been aware of the French supply for the Egyptian army which as you note would easily explain the blade on this sabre, and I agree the fullering does seem to correspond to other French blades of the period.
I have seen yataghan type blades on what appear to have been officers swords for cavalry and apparantly French produced from around end of the 18th century, so this falls well into place.
Nicely done and thank you again

All the best,
Jim

[Multumesc]

Were used in Romania swords like this, especially when the Turks came to invade.